In Season 3, Episode 3, Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid, the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles, continue their Big Picture series. They delve into the process of writing and trying to sell a picture book, sharing their journey in real-time with listeners. The episode covers a variety of topics, including the challenges of the book publishing process, the importance of organization in querying, and practical advice on pitch preparation and manuscript submission.
Key Highlights:
1. Revise. Revise. Revise: Lisa shares what work they’ve done to get the manuscript to where it’s as good as they can make it.
2. Querying Experience: Lisa shares her experiences with querying, emphasizing the need for organization and how untracked submissions can lead to awkward situations.
3. Emotional Aspects of Publishing: Beth talks about the emotional side of waiting for feedback and the strategy of distancing oneself from the process.
4. The Pitch for Cat's Rule: The hosts reveal the summary of their picture book, Cat's Rule, focusing on themes of friendship, acceptance, humor, and its appeal to both children and parents.
5. Crafting a Pitch Email: Beth outlines the structure of a pitch email, including author backgrounds, market positioning, and adherence to submission guidelines.
6. Research and Preparation: The episode stresses the importance of researching publishers, choosing appropriate comps (comparative titles), and understanding the market. Bitsy Kemper’s wonderful publishers list is discussed.
7. Role of Illustrations in Picture Books: Lisa and Beth discuss how illustrations complement the text in picture books and the balance between text and art notes, and provide a trick for how to see the balance.
8. Advice on Pitching and Querying: The co-hosts provide practical tips on preparing pitches and understanding the nuances of the query process.
9. Collaboration and Motivation: The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion about their collaborative dynamics and upcoming projects, including a website launch.
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season three, episode three, and today we are jumping back into the Big Picture series, where we write and try to sell a picture book in real time, right along with you, our amazing listeners.
Lisa Schmid:
I still can't believe we're doing this and I'm very, very excited.
Beth McMullen:
I am too. It's like so fun. Well, you know, because I think I was thinking about something that Kathleen said in our last episode and if you haven't listened to that one, go and listen to it because it has tons of very, very actionable, useful information. But she said something about demystifying the process of book publishing and how it reminds me a little bit of the Wizard of Oz, that scene where you know the guy is about what's his name Oz is that Oz Is behind the curtain. Yes, sorry, I know I'm going to get killed for that, and you know, I think it's Toto who pulls back the curtain. It's just a guy. Right, the great and powerful, oz is just a guy. So that's what I feel like we're doing we're pulling back the curtain of this mysterious, ridiculous, sometimes ridiculous process.
Lisa Schmid:
It is a strange process and it can be really daunting when, especially when you're first getting into it, it's very overwhelming. You just don't know where to start and what to expect, and it's changed so much over the years. Like I look back at when I was queering, you know, I think some people are very organized about it and I would just see somebody and I'd be like, oh, I'm going to query them. And I never kept track of anyone. So I didn't have like a list. I was just like throwing spaghetti against the wall.
Beth McMullen:
That was like my whole approach, but I feel like emotionally, that may have been better, because I feel like if you're one of those people who's super organized and you have your list, you just spend all day staring at the list, obsessing about who has what and can I cross them off the list? Did they read it yet? Are they reading it right? This minute, like in the moment it's really the whole thing is very stressful. My approach has always been to turn my stuff over to my agent and completely block it out of my head. I don't want to hear anything about it. I don't want to hear who it went to. I don't want to hear anything until there's actual feedback that's going to be useful to me and I let her figure that out. Or there's like somebody who's actually interested in the book, because I can't. It's so distracting and debilitating.
Lisa Schmid:
I remember one time when I was querying and I think at the time I was querying Olioxley and I've mentioned this before, but I ended up selling Olioxley on my own through like a kid pit pitch party on Twitter. But I think at that same time somebody, an agent, had come in and liked my queer or liked my pitch, and I didn't even remember querying her and I didn't have a list. So I queried her and she had already rejected me. I guess, oh no, she's like, if this story hasn't changed at all, we're not interested. And I'm like well, that's harsh, oh no, oh no, I don't even. Maybe it was like her partner or something, but anyway, so just be a better organized person than me?
Beth McMullen:
2024, we are going to be organized as hell. Just watch us go.
Lisa Schmid:
Well, and I think with Query Manager it's such a great way to and I didn't use it was it available back then and I didn't know it.
Beth McMullen:
I never used it. It came around after I had already started working with Lee, so I didn't. I don't. Yeah, I feel like it does seem like it would be a great tool.
Lisa Schmid:
Like query. It's query tracker right or query yeah, it's query tracker.
Beth McMullen:
I think so I'm not the right person to ask.
Lisa Schmid:
If you are just starting out, go check out. I'm pretty sure it's query tracker and that's where you can kind of keep track of all your queries and you can see how your agent or see what the agent like where you are in the queue.
Beth McMullen:
It's really interesting. Yeah, okay, that's great, but would also like ramp up my anxiety about the whole thing, because I'd be again obsessively checking where I was in the queue.
Lisa Schmid:
Well, and I know I have friends who are querying and using it and they're like, okay, she skipped over mine, like I don't. What does that mean? What does that mean? I'm like I don't know. Oh no, I don't know.
Beth McMullen:
That's too much. Okay, that might be too much information.
Lisa Schmid:
I know Honestly if.
Beth McMullen:
I was looking at the list and they skipped over me. I would be a puddle.
Lisa Schmid:
There's something else. I saw an agent do this and I see agents do it every once in a while and I'm like do they understand the emotional frenzy that they're putting writers into? So, like every once in a while, agent will say I'm reading this submission right now and losing my head because it's so wonderful and I'm just you know, blah, blah, blah. And so every person that has submitted to that agent is right now thinking is it me? Is it me?
Beth McMullen:
You know what I?
Lisa Schmid:
mean Terrible. I just every time an agent does that I'm like do you realize that you now have every person who is submitted to you is now spinning and like cracking.
Beth McMullen:
You know what I mean? I mean, I never seen that, but it sounds so bad.
Lisa Schmid:
That's all I think about every time I see that I'm just like no, don't do that, because immediately you're like filled with hope, yeah we are fragile creatures.
Beth McMullen:
We are fragile, we are so much abuse in the querying trenches and we're back in. Anyway, we're throwing ourselves in with this picture book. We did a big picture episode one before the New Year where we talked a little bit about the feedback that we had gotten on our manuscript from Rate your Story. But before we jump in, I just want to read the summary of the story so you have some idea about what we're doing. So it's called Cat's Rule.
Beth McMullen:
Cat's rule unfolds the whimsical tale of a role-loving cat, convinced that cats and dogs cannot be friends. A playful and persistent dog challenges this notion, leading to a series of heartwarming and humorous encounters At least we think so From sharing toys to experiencing bath time together. Each activity playfully questions the cat's strict rules. The story culminates in a touching conclusion where the cat embraces the possibility of friendship with the dog, teaching children the value of open mindedness and the joy found in unexpected relationships. And also we are hoping to make parents laugh, because God knows they need it Right. At the end of the day, you've worked 10 hours, you've made meals, you've cleaned, you've done laundry and now you're just going to sit down and read a book with your kid. You want to have a laugh. Let those endorphins flow. So that's the summary of Cat's Rule, Lisa, and I think it's hilarious.
Lisa Schmid:
So I have to say this is such a good pitch, Like when I was queering, I wish you would have written all my pitches, because when you read this to me I was like that's so good, I'd buy that.
Beth McMullen:
Do you know what I did? I looked at book descriptions, picture book descriptions on Amazon, because those are like a little usually like right around the right length for a summary, and I was looking at kind of how they're structured and they're all structured this way. I found it really instructive, just in terms of how to put together a summary that's going to deliver a lot of information. So if maybe you out there are trying to come up with a summary for a picture book or anything, I would just immerse yourself in those Amazon book summaries because they are really they're doing exactly what you want to do and you have so many examples. If you just read enough, you start to get the rhythm. It's pretty cool.
Lisa Schmid:
That's great advice. And just like on a little side note, I remember one time before I was going to a conference, somebody's like have your pitch ready in case you have an opportunity about your book and you want a pitch, like a quick pitch, to be like 25 words or less, when you're just like talking when somebody asks you about it so you don't ramble. I'd read it somewhere where they're like just go on to Netflix and look at all the brief descriptions and that will give you a really good idea, because they're all like 25 words. And I went on to Netflix and I just looked up ghost stories and just started like looking at all of them and I came up with my pitch that way.
Beth McMullen:
But it is a real brain bender to try and summarize it down into just this very compact sentence that you could essentially deliver to somebody in an elevator in two minutes or less.
Lisa Schmid:
Yeah, well, it's the elevator pitch. It's funny. A friend of mine just got in, she's getting the call, so she just scheduled an appointment with an agent and she's a picture book writer and she's like what do I do? What do I? You know how do I? How do I do this? And I said you need to have three manuscripts ready to go, besides the one that you sent her. And I'm like and you need to have a pitch for each one. And I said you need to write down a 25 word pitch so that you don't ramble when you're like in FaceTime with this agent. Just have it written down, 25 words. You know, pitch each one, be very concise and make sure that they are pristine and ready to go. And so that was my advice to her. And so if you are getting that call, make sure you are prepared.
Beth McMullen:
That is really good advice. Don't ever say, well, the book is sort of about, or kind of like, blah, blah blah. Be confident in describing your own story, don't blither yes.
Lisa Schmid:
I'm going to look because that's what I do.
Beth McMullen:
So do you want to talk about I want people to understand what we've done since the last episode. Yes, do you want to talk a little bit about all of the fun stuff that we have been up to in the background? While everybody was enjoying their holidays, we were at the library.
Lisa Schmid:
Yes, so we had. We got our critique back from Rate your Story and it was really good, really good feedback. And one of the things that Lynn Marie suggested was that we go and read a bunch of books, and we had done that before. But you know what I was like. You know what we're doing this again.
Lisa Schmid:
So we went and got a bunch of picture books and kind of reviewed them, and so one of the things I did was I took a couple of the picture books and I just took the text from it and wrote out the text. So I didn't have the pictures. And then I looked at the text and I'm like you know what this is. If you didn't have the illustrations, you know half the story is missing and it just it really puts you in the mindset of like okay, we're using too many words in different places or we're just you know we're expounding on something that doesn't need to be elaborated on, because the illustrations are going to take care of that, and so just by like kind of removing the illustrations and just looking at the text page by page, it really helps you get in the rhythm of it and also have a better understanding of what's needed and what's not.
Beth McMullen:
That's yeah. That's such a good idea for people who are doing picture books because it definitely will let you know that if you're overwriting, putting too much in, don't need it unnecessary. That's pretty wild and when we've been working on this one this cat's role I can see pictures in my head. Do you know what I mean? There's that visual element to it. I get that with all of my writing. I can always see it like a movie in my head. But with the picture books I can see the art and then it kind of reinforces that idea that much of the action and the motion and the momentum of the story is gonna be in those illustrations.
Lisa Schmid:
One of the other things is that I think and we really pulled this back is I think initially we had too many art notes and because we did have, like we have like a vision of what we thought it was gonna be, and we really tapered that back and allowed more freedom for the illustrator and just I think we cut out all of them except for like two or three. No, I added one back in that felt critical.
Beth McMullen:
Did you add one back in? See, this is what happens in a, in a writing partnership. Folks, things happen when you're sleeping.
Lisa Schmid:
I did at the end because Lynn Marie didn't understand. I mean, there was a part where she's like I'm confused with this and I'm like you know what? We need an art note here, okay, and so I added one in, and the rest of them, I think, are pretty self-explanatory by the text. But there was that one point where it's like you know what, if she's confused by it, other people are gonna be confused by it, and so we need to have some clarification.
Lisa Schmid:
So that was another thing. It's just, you know, not having too many art notes and and because I think and that's also something I wondered about I'm like how many art notes did they have, Like to aid that? You know the storytelling, because some of it is just really you can't follow the story without the illustrations. Do you know what I mean?
Beth McMullen:
I know and that was the hard part for us writing it is that we felt like we needed to explain through the art notes what was happening. And you have to. It almost feels like a leap of faith. You got to pull those out and leave it mostly up to the imagination of the illustrator to figure out how they're gonna craft the pictures to go with that story. But it's super stressful. I kind of hate it. I want to put in like a hundred art notes. I know that I can't and that's bad form but still makes me nuts.
Lisa Schmid:
Well, and I think we did a good job of going back and forth like you added a couple things that I was just I laughed out loud and like, oh my God, how did we not do that one before we made some, I think, really good changes to the manuscript.
Beth McMullen:
Yeah, I think the reading and the stuff from Lynn Marie was invaluable because we had written this a while ago and it had just been sitting for a long time, which is also good because we gave us some time away from it. But I think the tweaks we made got it to be about as good as we're gonna get it. I mean, we can sit here for the next six months and tweak words, but it's not gonna make a fundamental difference. I just had I just had this conversation with somebody who is potentially a critique partner for me for a romcom that I'm writing, and she said she was gonna send me her initial chapters, but she's rewritten the first chapter, something like you know 75 times, or something like that, and I was like okay, you got to stop, you got to stop because, honestly, you get to the point where you're just rearranging words and there's no fundamental change, and it's just it's fear and anxiety of letting the thing fly into the world without you being able to, you know, bring it back.
Beth McMullen:
So I think we're, I think the manuscript, our cute little cat's role. Manuscript is as good as it's gonna get, yes, you know, until some editor takes it and works their magic.
Lisa Schmid:
Look at your optimism.
Beth McMullen:
I'm liking that. I'm trying to be like you. All right. So now that we have our manuscript, as good as we think we can make it, we are on to the submission process. And remember this is important to know we are doing this unagented, so that you, our listeners, can experience it in real time, without the middleman. So we are going to be getting everything directly back to us so we can share it with you, rather than having an agent do their magic in the middle. And so this is this is a conscious choice, because we want to, we want to be able to do this as a show.
Lisa Schmid:
Yeah, and it just as a side note, my, my agent was like soup and she does picture books, but she was just, you know, we told her what we were doing and she thought it was a fabulous idea to said, to kind of pull back the curtain, like we talked about. And so Leslie is aware of it and she's supporting us in the sense that she's like yes, go do that. So thank you to my agent, leslie Zampetti, for playing along with the big picture.
Beth McMullen:
I told I sent it to Lee and she was like, yeah, Lee Feldman does not do picture books and never will. And she was like, whatever, go play in your sandbox. When you have something like that I can actually sell. Maybe send that to me or don't, whatever. But I mean I love her. That's the way we've been for quite a long time. So this is an unagented project that changes the nature of who we're going to end up sending it to you, but that's another conversation. Yes, Anyway, so here we all are in the submission process.
Lisa Schmid:
So my I was tasked with finding the publishers and I have to say there's not as many publishers as I thought there might be for an agent in manuscripts for picture books. I think I found like 10.
Beth McMullen:
I think it's really hard to be on the receiving end of unsolicited, unagented material. You probably it's probably like a fire hose, right? I mean people who you could have, people who've tried to get an agent and couldn't, which indicates that maybe their quality is not quite ready yet. But you also get people who are like I just can't do that part, I don't want to deal with the whole agent thing, I'm just going to send it. So I think you get a lot of material coming at you.
Lisa Schmid:
Yeah, well, we're part of that blast, that's coming in their direction, like I keep, just like our big faces like coming into their inbox, like we're here oh my God, that's so true With your big owl glasses, like they're like ooh, my owl glasses. Nobody ever gets to see my owl glasses.
Beth McMullen:
One of these days I'm going to do a video clip so people can see what we look like.
Lisa Schmid:
So, okay, one of the things that we did and there's like so many resources and I think that's one of the things that we always want to highlight is there's so many resources out there, like some people have done the work for you in certain aspects, and Bitsy Kemper, who is Uber fabulous. I love Bitsy, we both do. She used to be our RA for SCBWI and she moved on, but when she did it, she was amazing.
Beth McMullen:
She was really amazing. She was the RA regional advisor when I joined SCBWI. Yeah, when we first met and I was like if I could get a 10th of the energy that this woman has, I would be in such good form Like she's a hurricane.
Lisa Schmid:
She exploded onto the stage. I was just like sitting there going. Who is this?
Beth McMullen:
woman. I know I was like is all kid like this Cause. Right now I'm a little afraid she's fabulous.
Lisa Schmid:
I love her she is fabulous and you know what? Just on the side note, she's had an amazing year last year and she has lots of books coming out that I will be celebrating. I just I love her so much and I'm always celebrating her success. So, anyway, she has graciously compiled a list of publishers who accept an agent in manuscripts. So instead of like going out and doing all the work yourself, just go to bitsykemperscom or follow her on Twitter or any of her social media. She's full of great information and just a huge cheerleader for the kid like community.
Beth McMullen:
She's amazing. That's the sort of research that saves you hours of time that you can spend doing something else, and the fact that there are people who do this just to help the community is, you know, remarkable. So go and look at her list. Follow her on social media. I will put all of the links to all of these things we're talking about in the podcast notes so you can easily access them. But this, I mean this, would have taken us a day of work and there it is, right there for the taking and completely free. So good stuff.
Lisa Schmid:
Yeah, and then one of the things that you know, just to going through it, like not every publisher was a good fit for our story, and that's part of it is, you know, make sure that you're looking at what books are in their catalog, because they're somewhere like they accept picture books but they're not. We're not a good fit. And there was a couple I kind of squeezed us. I'm like, well, maybe it'll be a good fit, maybe, whatever, this is the book they're looking for.
Beth McMullen:
It's the bubble. What's that? I don't know maybe, but that's true with any, that's true with anything, especially if you're looking for an agent. Like, don't send your stuff to somebody who would never represent your type of book. It's a waste of everybody's time and energy. Direct that energy toward finding the people who are squarely in your wheelhouse. It's just better for everybody.
Lisa Schmid:
So okay, and then we picked out comps. Comps are important. So one of the things that Really important and there is kind of a rule there, you know the comps are, I think it's like the last five years. Like, pick something that's current within the last five years. So don't pick something like I don't know, the Wizard of Oz.
Beth McMullen:
Sure comps Right. Even though we'd love to all have that as a comp. I love the Wizard of Oz.
Lisa Schmid:
So anyway, but just you know, make sure, because there was one that Beth wanted and I'm like hmm, I had to like she wouldn't let me have it.
Beth McMullen:
It's my favorite picture book in the world. What is it, beth, it's called? I Want my Hat Back by John Klassen. If you have not read this picture book and I don't care if you have kids or not, that's totally irrelevant. It is the funniest book I have ever read. I mean, it is delightful and demented and a little twisted and so so wonderful. It is exactly my sense of humor. It was like he looked into my brain and pulled it out. It's amazing. Anyway, I couldn't have it. It's too old.
Lisa Schmid:
Yeah, so I just you know. I know how much you love that book and I sat there I had to brace myself to tell you that we couldn't have it on there. It's okay.
Lisa Schmid:
I have it on my shelf. I can go read it whenever I want. So we did find some really good comps, but we also pulled comps from the publishers. So when you're going out and querying somebody, make sure that you're familiar with their catalog and that you you know if you can identify a picture book in there that's going to be one of your comps. It just shows you've done your homework and it's also a nice little nod to them that yes, we like that book too.
Beth McMullen:
This is so true. This is so true. Make sure you know what they're selling. They're going to be so much more likely to take you seriously if you show that you've made some effort to get to know them. Super important Comps are fun because you get to look at books.
Lisa Schmid:
I like that part. It is fun and it was. You know I was looking through them and then you know, identifying all the different comps and all the different ones. There was some. There was one that it was one of my favorite authors, robin Newman. Don't call me fuzzy butt. Oh my God, just the title kills me. I'm very familiar with that book, and so I'm like oh my God, don't call me fuzzy butt, that's one of our comps.
Beth McMullen:
I mean just like I think picture books are so much funnier than they used to be Like they're just, they crack me up and they're. They're like I like that. They're a little demented now, you know. They embrace the crazy, silly humor of kids and rather than trying to make it be something that is very, very serious all the time Now there's absolutely room for serious picture books, but I'm glad that these other ones exist.
Lisa Schmid:
Yes, and so we thought about some fun ones that we did.
Beth McMullen:
We had fun ones, we were very entertained by and so that those will be in our pitch email. I just want to talk a little bit about the pitch email. So I read you my summary, the summary, our summary up top about you know that summarizes the story of the manuscript that we're going to be attaching and so the way that I crafted pitch email, I looked at a whole bunch again, did the same thing, looked at a whole bunch of pitch emails and tried to figure out what structure made the best sense. And these, because this is unagented, this is just going to editors, so of course you know you have to have the editor's name and title correct and all of that stuff. That just goes without saying. So what I'm including is a little summary of the title, the authors, the target age group, which for us I said is three to six the word count and the themes. I identified the themes as friendship, acceptance and humor, and those are again based on my research of other books and also our comps. How are they described in on Amazon, in library catalogs, et cetera. So that's how you get to that. I'm including a little author background. So talking about what I've published, talking about what Lisa has published, talking about this collaboration and also pointing out that this is something that we are talking about on the podcast. That little bit is part of our market positioning.
Beth McMullen:
Another section in this pitch doc. Because you know what, if you can tell the publisher this is how I see this being sold, that's helpful, even if it's not necessarily the way it ends up being sold. So I can talk about. We're talking about this on our podcast. These are the comp books. This is how those have been sold. Ours will stand out because of these reasons. It's witty dialogue, it's universal appeal. So anything that you can put in there that makes them feel confident that this book can be sold is to your benefit. And you know there are lots of different ways that you can fulfill that marketing positioning section, depending on what your book is.
Beth McMullen:
And then I said we're attaching the complete manuscript here, formatted, to your submission guidelines. That is important. Make sure you look to see how they want things submitted and submit it exactly that way. There's a time for creativity. Formatting is not that time. Follow the submission guidelines to the T. Then I concluded with you know, thank you, blah, blah, blah blah. And that was the end. So make sure you check everything, the fine details of everything before you hit send. So that's what we're going to do this week, and then we're going to hit send, and then we're just going to sit here and wait. I hate waiting. I'm so bad at it.
Lisa Schmid:
I'm like, I'm excited for you to get it out.
Beth McMullen:
I keep like when you send it out, when you send it out, she asked me like four times before we even hit record this morning, and I was like I swear I'm going to do it later today. I'm going to like do my last drop to the pitch and then we're going to go back and forth on that for a little bit and then it'll be ready to go. So here is one last call to action before we wrap up today's episode, and this is for you audience. If you're an editor or you know an editor who'd be perfect for Kat's role, let us know, send us an email, send us a social media DM, whatever, because we are always looking for more avenues to get this manuscript out in front of people. So please, please, please, think about it and if you feel like you have someone who's a good match, just give us a shout Yay, yay, okay, so this is fun. I hope this is helpful for anybody who's out there who's thinking about querying unagented, agented whatever it is, just to give you a little peek behind the curtain of what we're doing and how we're doing it. And so that's it for today's episode. Remember, please visit our Writers with Wrinkles link tree or the podcast notes and find out how to support the show by subscribing, following and recommending oh, and we're going to have a website soon, but I'll make a big deal about that when it's up and running.
Beth McMullen:
What are you doing? Oh my God, this is me throwing Lisa under the bus. So now she has to finish the website. Stop, this is how collaboration works. Can you hear my voice shaking? Yeah, lisa's freaking out. That was on purpose, though.
Lisa Schmid:
That was unkind, it was cruel, you know what I'm going to do.
Beth McMullen:
I'm going to craft a strongly printed email and send it over to you because I'm not pleased.
Lisa Schmid:
This is like the same thing you did with the merchandising. You're like I'm not merchandise and then you like maybe.
Beth McMullen:
I know. But this is how I motivate you, because I know the threat of public humiliation actually is quite effective. Oh my God, I know you're disowning me as a friend right now. Again, you know what's so funny?
Lisa Schmid:
Our book is like you are the cat and I am the dog. It's like that's rule. It is such an analogy for our friendship.
Beth McMullen:
I like that.
Lisa Schmid:
It's like a rule.
Beth McMullen:
You're the exuberant dog who's going to bounce off to finish the website. Oh my God All right, whatever, all right.
Beth McMullen:
So next week, if Lisa's still talking to me, we have Ben Fox on the show, who started shepherdcom, which is a website where 10,000 plus authors have shared five of their favorite books around a topic, theme or mood, if you like best of lists, which I do. Shepherdcom is for you. Also, it's positioning itself as an alternative to Goodreads, and if you listened to our last episode with Kathleen, you will know how we all feel about Goodreads. So be sure to join us for that. We'll be talking about trends and bookmarking all sorts of good stuff, and it'll be a great episode. So until then, happy reading, writing and listening. Bye Lisa, bye Beth, bye guys.