From Teacher to Bestselling Author, Matt Eicheldinger is telling the stories kids want to read

Hosts: Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid

Theme: Writer Resilience, Success

Key Discussion Points:

1. Matt Eicheldinger's Background:
   • Transition from childhood interests to writing.
   • Teaching career and its role in storytelling.
   • Path to self-publishing and eventual traditional publishing success.
2. Celebrating Recent Successes:
   • Matt's book, "Matt Sprouts and the Curse of the Ten Broken Toes," hits bestseller lists.
   • Discussion on dealing with imposter syndrome and the overwhelming nature of success.
3. The Realities of Publishing:
   • The challenges of gaining visibility and the perseverance required in the face of rejection.
   • The impact of social media presence and pre-sale records on publishing opportunities.
   • Understanding the nature of book deals and the industry's unpredictability.
4. Self-Publishing Insights:
   • Matt's experiences and learnings from self-publishing, including Kickstarter funding and distribution struggles.
   • The importance of pivoting strategies and learning from rejection to enhance one’s writing and querying process.
5. Social Media Strategy:
   • Matt’s approach to building an authentic social media presence without overtly promoting his books.
   • The significance of being genuine, consistent, and engaging in storytelling on social media platforms.
   • Lessons learned from viral content and maintaining a focus on genuine engagement over chasing trends.

Conclusion:
The episode encapsulates the highs and lows of a writer's life, emphasizing hard work, resilience, and adaptability. Matt's journey from an unknown teacher and writer to a celebrated author exemplifies the unpredictable nature of the publishing world and the importance of staying true to one's craft and vision.

Find Matt here.

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Transcript

Beth McMullen: 0:31

Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season three, episode 16, and today we are excited to welcome Matt Eicheldinger to the show. Matt wasn't always a writer. He spent most of his childhood playing soccer, reading comics and trying to stay out of trouble. Little did he know those moments would ultimately help craft his first novel, matt Sprouts and the Curse of the Ten Broken Toes. Matt lives in Minnesota with his wife and two children and tries to create new adventures with them whenever possible. When he's not writing, you can find him telling students stories in his classroom or trail running along the Minnesota River bottoms. So welcome Matt. We are super excited to have you today.

Matt Eicheldinger: 1:15

Thanks, I'm happy to be here. This will be fun.

Lisa Schmid: 1:17

It's so funny. I can't even believe you're here, because I'm going to use a Taylor Swift quote kind of quote or a song title. You're in a lavender haze right now. You are winning. I'm just going to let you tell, like, what's happened to you in the last like two weeks, and then we can dive further. But let's talk about your really big thing that just happened.

Matt Eicheldinger: 1:40

Sure, and yeah, I do want to talk about the past because I think from the outside people might look at my Instagram following and think like, oh, he got a following and then a book deal and it couldn't be more opposite of that. But yeah, the last two weeks my book released with Andrews McNeil publishing on March 19. And then that same week we found out I was on the USA Today bestseller list and we're like, wow, that's crazy. And then we saw I was like publisher weekly bestseller. We're like wow, that's also crazy.

Matt Eicheldinger: 2:08

And then my wife and I were sitting at home and we got a call from my editor and she was like, put it on speakerphone and she let me know that we were a New York Times bestseller.

Matt Eicheldinger: 2:17

And, to be quite honest, like we we don't really know how to react to that yet Like we did cry, there was a lot of tears.

Matt Eicheldinger: 2:24

But like, even when you emailed me and you and you said, oh my gosh, new York Times bestseller, like even that was one of the first times I saw it come from somebody else, or like I was on a plane a few days ago and I wrote it down and I started crying because it doesn't seem there's some definite imposter syndrome happening, but I'm really thankful for the opportunity to hopefully continue telling stories for a while, because it's been a lot of fun this past year it's amazing, and I'm sure you described very well how heady it must be to be, because you know we live in that imposter syndrome, that self-doubt as writers and then to have that that sort of world embrace of what you've done creatively is pretty amazing thank you, and I think that the hardest part for me is both my wife and I are big time planners, and so, like, when someone gives you a title like New York Times bestseller, you're like cool.

Matt Eicheldinger: 3:17

What does that mean, though? Like, what does it do? And so even one of my kids says, like, do you get a jacket? I was like I don't, I don't think I get a jacket.

Beth McMullen: 3:27

I think you should make a jacket Should.

Matt Eicheldinger: 3:29

I.

Beth McMullen: 3:30

Just put on the back, you know like instead of the school name it's like New York Times bestseller on the back. That would actually be cool.

Matt Eicheldinger: 3:36

That would be cool, Although you'll find while we talk I'm not good at talking about myself and any accolades I've gotten.

Lisa Schmid: 3:41

Well, this is going to be an awkward interview, then, because this is all about you.

Matt Eicheldinger: 3:46

Okay, well, I'm ready.

Beth McMullen: 3:48

All right, get ready. Well, congratulations on all that. We are super excited for you. Thank you, I I you know the the book is really resonating with people and that is gotta be super gratifying. So you initially self-published Matt Sprouts and the curse of the 10 broken toes, which then got picked up by Andrews McNeil. So can you walk us through that backstory? Like you said, this wasn't an overnight. 24 hours after you wrote the book, you were wildly successful. What was that journey like?

Matt Eicheldinger: 4:18

Yeah, so I'm getting better at taking a 15 year long journey and condensing it into not 15 years of me telling that story very long. So what originally happened was I'm a teacher. So when I was 21, I was still shocked that anyone would let me be in charge of children. And they they put me in a room and over the course of a day I would see about 136 grade students and all of my colleagues at the time had these really unique like traits about them. Like that teacher is a dancer, that teacher is a comedian, like everyone had a thing, but I didn't have a thing and I was like what could be my thing? And I happened to have a decent memory of experiences. So like if you were to ask me what was it like to, you know, walk in your third grade classroom, I could probably remember that to the point of me crying because it wasn't a great experience. So I have a just a very strong connection with things that I've been a part of, and so that also means I remember every embarrassing moment of my childhood and middle schoolers love that stuff, and so so I was like, well, maybe I could tell stories, maybe that's a thing I could do. Had no background in storytelling, but I started telling these embarrassing stories from my childhood of, like, my first kiss gone bad or getting trampled by a llama, and it, it, it hit kids so well that I ended up telling stories to other classrooms in the school. They just wanted to be entertained, and so I was like, well, there will be a point where I forget all these stories, so I should probably write them down. And so I went back home Again.

Matt Eicheldinger: 5:41

I was 21, had never written a book. I just decided to start writing them all down. And as I was writing them, I was like, well, maybe it would be cool to like connect them in some way. And so I did that. I have happened to have broken all 10 of my toes, and so that was like the general thread of it. I see your faces dropping right now, but like they weren't. It wasn't like a grand piano fell on me, it wasn't like one moment of traumatic memory, like I'll tell you a couple of them later. And then, when I had reluctant readers in class or readers who were struggling to find something, I would go well, do you like those embarrassing stories of me? Yes, we love those Great. Here's a book full of embarrassing moments that's based on me and kids read that so much in that year that it kind of shocked me. I was like, oh, maybe did I create something that's good, like I don't know. And so I spent.

Matt Eicheldinger: 6:36

You know, that was the moment that I started querying agents in New York, 21 years old, had no idea what I was doing. I'm sure the first five years worth of me querying agents were horrendous. I'm sure they were full of mistakes. I wasn't representing my book well I probably the summary was was I know one had edited the book, you know. So I'm sure it was kind of a five-year waste of time, but I did learn a lot.

Matt Eicheldinger: 7:00

And so in 2021, I'd received, up to that point, like probably well over 200 rejections easily. I kept them all in a spreadsheet and I'd gotten close a couple of times to getting an agent, but otherwise it was pretty much fail after fail. So I decided to self-publish. So my wife and I sat down and decided like, well, how much are we worth contributing to this dream? I ended up doing a Kickstarter campaign to like ask people to buy the book before it existed, and got enough to print about 2000 hardback covered books. I designed the cover with with a company called Wise Inc. Wise inc. And they kind of it's like pay to publish. So you, it's like itemized and everything, and I drew some spot art. I have no background in drawing, I just happen to doodle all the time. So I've gotten fairly decent at my style of doodling and I doodled some pictures in it.

Matt Eicheldinger: 7:49

And then that book, in 2021, over the next year and a half, went on to win four awards, one one of them being Indie Book of the Year, and I was like, oh my gosh, surely someone will notice me after all of this time. And all of the, nobody was interested, not a single. I would send new query letters of Book of the Year. I've sold out all my books. And then I had about 30 books left and I looked at my wife. I'm like I think it's time to be done. It has been a really long time.

Matt Eicheldinger: 8:17

I did what I set out to do. I made the book. People bought it, I visited some classrooms. It's been great, but when you are an independent author, most of that money that you make would go right back into printing and it was just like as a full-time teacher. I didn't have the energy to keep it up. And so, once you know it, though, the moment I decided to be done, that's when I got picked up by an agent, and I could go into that backstory all the time.

Matt Eicheldinger: 8:42

But when I signed with my agent, I was so happy just to have an agent. I'm like so how long do you think this will take? And she's like I don't know. Matt, I've read a lot of books, and this book I read really quick. I think we'll sell it fast. And in two weeks I read really quick, I think we'll sell it fast. And in two weeks we had a multi-book deal. And so my 15 years of struggling to get this book anywhere, it happened within a two-week span. It just like that. All of a sudden, I have a two-book deal.

Matt Eicheldinger: 9:08

And then what's even crazier is I was like oh, I'm realizing my dream. I should probably take a year off from teaching. I wonder what that looks like. I'd never gone on leave before, so I called HR the day that I signed my contract. The day that I signed it, I said when's the last day to go on leave? They said tomorrow. You have to put in your paperwork tomorrow. So I went home and I cried with my wife because that's 50% of our salary gone, gone. And we're like I get, I mean, we have. No, I still am learning so much about the industry. Like I didn't know, like my advance was good, I'm not complaining at all, but it didn't replace my teaching salary. So we just went for it and we decided, okay, I will take a year off of teaching.

Matt Eicheldinger: 9:51

And then the first day I wasn't a teacher is when I started telling stories on Instagram and within a month of me telling those stories, I had 300,000 followers and that allowed me to pitch other book ideas because, as you probably both know, having a following means a lot in this industry. You have more exposure. But it wasn't even that that got me. It wasn't the following count, it was my pre-sale numbers had set records at the company. I was the number one pre-ordered book at Barnes Noble for Simon Schuster distribution, above Britney Spears, her autobiography.

Matt Eicheldinger: 10:26

And so we joke in our house that when's it going to stop? Because it's always something that's bigger and better. And I don't want to say I'm being trained for all this attention, but it's like I'm honestly scared, I'm waiting for something bad to happen, because it just seems like I'm due for it. But also I think that I've earned it after 15 years. I've worked really, really hard to get to where I am and I believed in my idea for a very long time and I'd like to think that this is finally, you know, good coming back to me. But I know every author could say that too, because every artist dreams of getting known and having an audience and I'm just really thankful for everything that's happened. But I honestly can't believe any of it. It seems very surreal most days.

Beth McMullen: 11:13

We're going to call this episode bigger than Britney. I just made a note because that is such a wonderful little stat to kind of illustrate this crazy journey that you're on. But I like what you said about it being hard work. It was 15 years of hard work and faith in your own ability to tell these stories. And, yes, you had kids in your school who were like, yeah, we love that. But, we can very easily talk ourselves out of believing that that means something on a bigger scale, right? So?

Matt Eicheldinger: 11:46

Absolutely.

Beth McMullen: 11:47

Overcoming all those mental hurdles, overcoming the logistical, financial, all of those things to kind of realize your vision. I think that's a super important lesson for listeners to, to pay attention to.

Matt Eicheldinger: 12:00

You know it's not overnight, but you don't get those amazing results unless you do the hard work exactly, and what I like to tell people is, as I was prepared for my moment, like I had done self-publishing, so I knew everything about that side of the industry that I feel like I could know. So when my opportunity came to talk to an agent, I feel like I was well-prepared. I had all of my data ready. I had all my talking points. I wish it wouldn't have taken 15 years, but I do feel like all those setbacks that happened over that time really did prepare me for what I'm doing now and what I like to tell students too.

Matt Eicheldinger: 12:37

Like and I shared this with my students as I went through this for 15, I showed them rejection letters. I showed them ones that you know were very common, where it's just like this book's not for me at this time, thank you. And I showed them the ones that hurt really bad Some. There were some rejections that I got that were pretty ruthless, really bad Some. There were some rejections that I got that were pretty ruthless and like their thoughts on my book, and it was.

Matt Eicheldinger: 12:59

It was fun to be not. Maybe not fun, but it was. It was good to be able to show my students like I got this rejection and then my students go well, now what are you going to do? I'm like, well, I'm going to write another one. I'm just going to keep trying and and I hope that those students remember that too and I've gotten some DMs from former students on Instagram. They're like I remember you telling stories in class when I was 11 years old. I can't believe they're a book and that's pretty special to see that they can watch a full circle moment of a teacher, an adult who tried really hard for a really long time.

Beth McMullen: 13:32

I mean, it's amazing to illustrate that to your students, because we're constantly telling kids be resilient, keep trying, blah, blah, blah. But you did, and there you go.

Matt Eicheldinger: 13:40

And the other. The other thing I tell kids when I do author visits is I really stress that you know, as an artist, you get feedback all the time, and feedback can be helpful but it can also be hurtful, and oftentimes you, as an artist, are going to have to choose what to listen to and what to not listen to, and a lot of those are opinions, and opinions are not facts, and so you need to continue to persevere. If you feel like your idea is a really good idea and you have people telling you know, that doesn't mean it's not a good idea, that just means you haven't found your audience yet. So I do believe every, every author, every artist has an audience. It just might take you some time to find them.

Lisa Schmid: 14:20

This is all good information for our listeners, because this is something we talk about all the time, that you just you just have to keep plugging away. And one of the things that you said, I was just about to give up and that's when it happened and I I we've heard that so many times that I was just about to give up. You know, it happened for me, I was just about to give up and then, you know, I, I got my first book deal and so I I want to encourage people, like if you're thinking I'm done no, you're not, you're not, it's just a moment and done no, you're not, you're not, it's just a moment. And you know, tomorrow, pick yourself up and just keep going. I mean, look what happened to you, I mean this whole thing. I wish viewer or listeners could see me, because my jaw has been dropped the entire time, like I just and it couldn't happen to a nicer person.

Matt Eicheldinger: 15:09

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I really do hope that, that I get to leave a legacy not just for my own kids, but for other kids who want to go into publishing. Like I said before, the journey was not always enjoyable, but now I appreciate having gone through it a lot more than maybe a celebrity overnight success, right, I always dreamed about like you know. Oh, I write a book and then it goes on to be a bestseller, right, it's like well, that's like the best you can do, right. But that wasn't. It didn't seem reasonable either that that would happen. So to have gone through all the things that I went through just makes it that much more enjoyable.

Lisa Schmid: 15:50

Awesome. So what advice that you've gone through this whole thing and it's it's going to be pretty difficult to replicate this journey from anyone else, but what specific advice would you give a writer who's interested in self-publishing, because that's kind of that's where obviously you started.

Matt Eicheldinger: 16:23

So what would you, what would you dole out for them? Few weeks of me actually being an independent author, like how do you get into bookstores, or what books will be in a bookstore, like just all the ins and outs of the industry I learned so much. That'd be the first thing, like, if you're going into self-publishing, you are going to learn so much about the industry and I think it'll help set you up for continuing to try new routes to get traditionally published. Does that make sense? You know, for example, I remember you know I had my, got all my books and also I had 2000 of them. And I was like all right, and I went to Target. I'm like, hey, target, will you put my book in your store? And they're like who are you?

Lisa Schmid: 17:02

You went to Target.

Matt Eicheldinger: 17:03

I didn't get into Target. I just I worked all my connections, I know you, who happens to know you, who happens to know you? And Target said no. And all the big box chains said no. But even some small independent stores I went to and I was like, hey, I have this book. And they're like, oh, you don't have the correct distribution, we won't carry you. I was like, well, what if I just call you on a biweekly basis and check inventory? They're like, okay, we'll do that, we'll carry two books at a time. And you know and that, and I ended up only getting into like three stores. But anyways, not to get too sidetracked.

Matt Eicheldinger: 17:37

The first thing that I would tell people about self-publishing is you're going to learn a lot. And those are just some examples. The second thing I would give people as advice is you need to be willing to pivot and pivot in your approach to getting noticed. And I've done that many times over my career. When I was writing letters, I thought I had the best query letter ever. It had gotten me some partial manuscript reads and I thought it was like that's it, all right, I'm ready, I can just send these out in bulk. And I ended up getting some feedback from an agent and it made me change my letter completely. And that can be really hard when you feel like you've nailed it or you've grasped onto something you think is great, but some feedback you really need to take to heart, and so that was one place I pivoted. Another place I pivoted was TikTok and Instagram. Like, if you especially TikTok, if you go, look at my TikTok history.

Matt Eicheldinger: 18:31

I have not been telling stories forever. It started off in the middle of the pandemic, with me trying to just like revitalize my love for teaching, because I was standing in a room by myself every day looking at a screen and I didn't get to talk to colleagues. I was talking to kids 30 of them some of which were having a really hard time at home, and in between those moments I needed to do something in my classroom to give me joy. So I was just making silly videos of teaching, poking fun at me not my kids and that ended up selling some books by Carrie's. It just did. And so then I pivoted. I'm like, oh, maybe I do this now, maybe I go all into teacher humor. And it took me a while to find what I was good at, and I happen to have saved hundreds of stories from my teaching career and I never thought they would be for anyone but me, and that's what I ended up doing. On Instagram was just something I do. Naturally, that's repeatable and genuine, and so you know.

Matt Eicheldinger: 19:28

The second advice is to pivot, but the third advice is, if you want to get noticed on social media, do something that is repeatable and genuine and that does not take you a lot of energy at all. When I record my videos, it is a computer stand that barely holds my phone up Like it's horrible. I should probably invest in something better. Stand that barely holds my phone up Like it's horrible. I should probably invest in something better. And it's me. That's it. There's no, there's no cool editing tricks. You know like, and I think if, having gone viral before in things that I spent a lot of time trying to edit, it's just so hit or miss, like. There's no reason to have a high production value when that video might get 10 views. Just do something that you love and eventually your audience will find you.

Lisa Schmid: 20:14

And your reels are. So you know, when I first was introduced to you by Eric Pascal, I went and checked out your reels immediately and there's something your storytelling is and it's just the way you do it. It's very soothing and you're like a Mr Rogers. I'm like, oh, I could watch him all day. So I just like went through. But each story has so much humor and such a great lesson in it that it's like but it's not like a lesson that you're shoving down people's throat. It's just this really lovely reel, that's just fun and I want to hear the story Like where's this going, what's happening with it? And you can tell it's a very genuine, it's. You're very authentic with your storytelling and I can see how that would translate into your, into your books.

Matt Eicheldinger: 21:34

Well, thank you, I do wish you know my first book was written so long ago and we did edit it, but the character Matt Sprouts is, uh, he's not mean but he's. He is self-centered, he's selfish, he is cocky and, uh, in hindsight, I wish I would have made him a little softer. However, the story of Matt Sprouts over the next few books is a story of growth, and what I like about the Matt Sprouts character is he is not perfect, even at the end of the book. You're like I kind of like Matt. I like these other characters more, but for kids, having watched them for 15 years, you know everyone's trying to find how they fit.

Matt Eicheldinger: 22:13

We like to say that in middle school, kids try on many different hats. They're like am I the athlete today? Am I the theater person? Like, who am I? And that's very much Matt Sprouts. And the thing about growing up is many of these kids, they're always aiming for good. They're always. They always have something at the end that they're aiming for. That is genuine and good and that's what I hope readers get from. Matt Sprouts is a kid who makes a ton of mistakes, many of which happen to be funny.

Beth McMullen: 22:41

But he's learning these lessons along the way and it sounds like you're really well set up for a series, because you made him not a perfect wonderful character at the beginning, leaving you nowhere to go, so you've got places to bring him, which I think is brilliant, even if you didn't do it on purpose, right.

Matt Eicheldinger: 22:59

Right? Well, I certainly didn't do it on purpose. I mean, the first book it's like 85% autobiographical, so if you were to point to a page I could tell you where that comes from. But the rest of the books they'll pay homage to where I'm from and some memories. But books two and three are very much fictional, like they're 5% based on my life. Um, but I like that.

Matt Eicheldinger: 23:23

There has been some room for growth, um, and you know, another thing, that is, I think maybe a better writer is telling stories on Instagram, because it forces you in 90 seconds I have that's.

Matt Eicheldinger: 23:34

All I get is 90 seconds to get at the heart of a story.

Matt Eicheldinger: 23:38

And I I was at one time recording stories every day, which meant I was writing stories every day, and I didn't realize how quickly I was learning more about myself as a writer when I started writing every day, because up until that point, I had just been working on one book, that's it. And, like the things I create for my classroom, it wasn't like I didn't write at all. Um, but if you are a listener out there and you are working on a project and you've been solely focused on that one book, or maybe two books, I would encourage you to try something different. That's short, every single day, because I've learned so much about storytelling and how to present and transition just from the 90 seconds that Instagram has forced me to do. I think honestly, if I would have stayed on TikTok, I don't think I would have had the success that I've had on Instagram, because TikTok gives you 10 minutes and I would have just rambled on and give any details that you don't need, but it's really forced me to become a better storyteller.

Beth McMullen: 24:31

Two things that you said that really resonate. You just talked about how the writing of these stories, regular writing of these little stories, enhanced your craft, so that's a good thing for people to keep in mind. Like you can always be getting better. And also the thing that you touched on when you said that you were writing down these stories that you were collecting from your classroom because otherwise you just forget, you can't keep them all in your head, and what an instructional thing for people to do so. When you have an idea, jot it down, because chances are, by the time you get home and the kids want dinner and yada, yada, yada, it's gone from your head and that may be the spark that you need at some point in your writing.

Beth McMullen: 25:17

So I love both of those things seem really they should resonate with people and hopefully you know, maybe look at the way that that you're doing your writing life and maybe incorporate some of this into it.

Matt Eicheldinger: 25:29

Maybe you know those, those moments too, to encourage listeners the moments that I wrote down for my classroom.

Matt Eicheldinger: 25:34

They were not written in long form, they were like single sentences, and I think that's what's neat about carrying a little notebook around, is you?

Matt Eicheldinger: 25:42

Like you said, you don't need a lot to get inspiration from, and for me, capturing those moments in my classroom was a way for me to see the things that I was missing all the time. Because I think, just like you and I have, and whenever job you have, you probably have your five go-to stories from that job or profession and you retell the funny ones or the stressful ones or the times you overcame something or were wronged, and all those stories are important. But when you write things down about your day all the time, you start to pick up on real subtle things that have a story in there, and I would encourage people to go about their day writing a single sentence about something they witnessed. If you're looking for a good spot to do some good, people watching airport is amazing, high emotions in the airport but truly, just like you said, the practice of writing every day really can take you to some new places.

Beth McMullen: 26:39

Right. And then, when your opportunity presents itself, as yours has, you're ready, you can take advantage.

Matt Eicheldinger: 26:45

Yeah.

Beth McMullen: 26:45

You know you can maximize that moment. You answered most of our social media question about what it kind of takes. Well, you know what's the special sauce for writers who are thinking about diving into social media. So, other than authenticity, which seems very important, and being concise and quick and not wasting a lot of time on the you know fancy stuff, because maybe you're not going to get a return on that investment.

Matt Eicheldinger: 27:11

Yeah.

Beth McMullen: 27:11

What else might people think about if they're going to give this a go? Is there anything else that you would add? That's important.

Matt Eicheldinger: 27:18

Yeah, and this has just been my own practice. So when my social media started growing very rapidly, my wife and I sat down and we made a list of rules, because there's a lot of things that come as your social media following grows there's opportunities, there are scams, there are people who just want to take advantage of you. There's a lot of things that will be thrown at you want to take advantage of you. There's a lot of things that'll be thrown at you, and one of the first things that I decided to do is and this sounds so silly as an author is, my platform will not be me talking about my books. I will not be pitching my books on social media often because no one wants to come to your page and see an ad Nobody. And so if you're looking to grow, you can't be pushing your product all the time, and that's good advice for any, you know, content creator. I haven't created a calendar yet, but basically what I do is I look at my feed and I go when's the last time I talked about a book? And if it was within a week, I'm not talking about it Like I might do a little post about a unique, you know, like a follower sending me a picture of a kid reading the book, but I try and keep my page very much about storytelling and so if you are looking to start social media, I would encourage you to think about what it is that you are going to post daily, because that's what people are coming to see and no one's going to stay if you're just pitching your book all the time. But talk about the writing. Maybe you want to talk about the writing process, maybe you want to give, like, the five steps to start an introduction. Like that People will stay, for those are strategies, but as far as, like, pitching your book, no, you're not going to find very much success if you're just on there talking about your book all the time.

Matt Eicheldinger: 28:55

The second thing I like to to butt some myths too about social media stuff. I make zero money on Instagram, which even some of my best friends don't believe me. I don't make any money and that's um, that's part and due, because I don't do any paid advertisements Because, again, if your goal is to grow, no one's going to follow you if all you're doing is pitching stuff, like I remember I had a fairly large company reach out to me to pitch children's deodorant and it would have given I know it would have given me a nice like chunk of change. But then I thought about, like all right, if I'm telling these genuine stories of kids and then at the end I go and, by the way, buy this to your like, I think it kind of takes away from the awesome authenticity of the storytelling. But again I go back to my original rule, and my original rule is I'm not here to pitch stuff all the time, and that includes paid advertisements. So keep that in mind as you, as you look to post.

Matt Eicheldinger: 29:49

And the other thing I tell people too is like some people are scared of being on camera. They're like, oh, they're going to see me. Tell people, too is like some people are scared of being on camera. They're like, oh, they're going to see me and I go. Who Like?

Matt Eicheldinger: 29:56

Your first few things you post, no one's going to see it. Like, maybe you might get 10 views and of those 10 views, maybe nine people saw five seconds worth of your content. And that's actually freeing a little bit because that means you get time to practice, you get to do all these things to practice and then if you don't like what you did in the past. You just delete it and then no one will see it, which maybe I should go back and look at some of my earlier stuff. But yeah, I mean, do something you can repeat is number one Don't be pitching your product all the time is number two, and then number three is it just takes practice. You got to find what you are good at and the thing about you is you are unique and you'll find a new way to twist whatever it is you're doing on social media.

Beth McMullen: 30:41

Oh my God, I feel like I've just gotten a hug, I know Well, I feel like.

Matt Eicheldinger: 30:45

I just got smarter.

Beth McMullen: 30:46

You know, I mean I love, I love that list because it's concise, it's actionable and if you follow it, you will probably have positive results. So thank you for sharing that with us. I think that's going to be a good thing, that people are going to be jotting down frantically hopefully not while they're driving. Listening and driving and writing doesn't go well together. I've tried, not so good.

Matt Eicheldinger: 31:10

Can I tell you, though, I learned that from mistake, from a big mistake. So here's a very it really was a freak accident. So I started TikTok and I had I had like 600 followers. I'd been doing it for months during the pandemic, and then my family and I were in the Target parking lot during a rainstorm and I noticed that the parking lot was flooding and I was like, hey, I bet there's a drain there, and I asked my wife to record me. So I went to the middle of the target parking lot. I'm like up to my knees in water. I find where the drain is and I just take my hand, I start doing this in the water, and it created a giant whirlpool and I drained the whole target parking lot and within two days, that video had like 15 million views.

Matt Eicheldinger: 31:53

Okay, had never gone viral before. I was so excited. I'm like I'm going to be famous. Like I had no idea what it meant to go viral and, holy cow, did I learn a lot? First of all, like you get a lot of followers when you have a, when you have a viral video, I went from 600 to like 10,000 in a couple of days.

Matt Eicheldinger: 32:12

Um, but those 10,000 people didn't know what they're following. They're just like cool video follow, and so they don't know that I'm a teacher. They don't know what I do, they don't know that I had written a book independently and so I tried to take advantage of it. I'm like, okay, I got to be the whirlpool swirling guy and so the next three videos were me trying to do like magic and I left them up. So if you want to see some really embarrassing things of me, go back in my TikTok timeline and see how I tried to capitalize on the growth that I got from that video. I'm embarrassed, but I also like leaving it up as a reminder of like, but it did sell some books. Like, I did sell books and that was cool, but I did have. You know, all the scams came my way, all the quick opportunities of hey, pitch this product for us.

Matt Eicheldinger: 32:58

When you have a viral video, everyone's just trying to take advantage of you. Every single person that reached out to me and it was a really good lesson on, okay, going viral does not make you famous. However, there are some things you can do that can help you navigate what to do next, and so if you are creating content, you're starting Instagram. If you do it every single day, all the time, you will have a video that all of a sudden, does substantially better than everything else. I won't say viral, but you'll have a video where, all of a sudden, it's way better than anything you've made, and it's in that moment that you have to decide know who am I and and what is it that I'm going to do.

Matt Eicheldinger: 33:36

Moving forward, I'll watch a lot of content creators who will do what I did. They'll have a video go viral and then they'll try and mimic it for a very long time and it's like is that the thing that you are just going to be now? Is that what you wanted to do? Because if it's not, then it becomes stressful. Then you get away from doing that genuine thing that is repeatable and fun every day, and so you have to be really mindful about what you're willing to do to grow your audience, and I am not willing now to do more Whirlpool videos. I'm only willing to do what I do now, which is tell stories.

Beth McMullen: 34:09

I'm going to go find that Whirlpool video because I want to see it, to see it, but I think that's that's so. I mean, because how often have we seen just as as content consumers? Somebody does something like that and then that's all they do, and it was interesting in the moment because it was unique and probably spontaneous. And now you're trying to recreate the magic and it never works.

Matt Eicheldinger: 34:33

Exactly.

Beth McMullen: 34:33

I love what you're saying about being yourself doing the videos. Maybe one is going to take off, for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that you change your rules, as you said, the rules that you have laid out for how you're going to approach this. I love that. It's almost like having your, you know your guide and this is what you're going to follow, and if you stray from that, then you need to bring yourself back.

Matt Eicheldinger: 34:54

Yeah, and even having a following, like I do, I think right now I have like 310,000. It hasn't moved much in like the last couple of months. It hasn't grown substantially. I haven't. A lot of people haven't left, and even in those moments it's tempting to be like, okay, maybe I should do something different, but I'm choosing not to. And I think that I think those are the moments that test you as a as an artist. You have to decide how much you want to stay true to yourself, and that can be really hard and, like I said before it's it's there are times to pivot, but I think there are also times where you really just have to stick to who you are, and social media can can just really put that worm on a hook and really dangle it in front of you like, oh, I bet if you did this you'd probably get sent. It's like I don't know.

Beth McMullen: 35:40

So we like to ask most of our writers who come on the show what do you wish you had known about publishing when you started? We touched on a little bit of this, so we talked about this, a little bit about how you learned. You know, what you learned was that you knew nothing when you started in the indie publishing universe. So if you had just a couple of things that you were going to say hey friend, you're starting out. This is what I want you to know. What would those be?

Matt Eicheldinger: 36:09

I haven't been asked this before, so I have to choose wisely. I think the first thing that just kept I kept asking really, though, after I kept hearing this really Like come on Was that editors and agents are really just looking for things that connect with them, and those are the standard rejections you get, and so, having read well over 200 rejections, most of them do say this book isn't for me, and that is probably an honest response, and that can be really hard as you're looking to find someone to look at your little baby of a book that you've been working on for so long, but that really is true, and so that's. I guess that's the first thing that I've learned. And the second thing, I guess the second thing that I've learned is I still have a lot to learn as a writer, and I'm very appreciative of my editor, Aaron Pascal, who I feel like just jumps into my mind as we're editing back and forth, and I've heard stories of editors who have been very rigid, and I've heard stories of authors who are very rigid, and I've approached this whole thing of I have so much to learn, and I think that has again made me a better writer, because I'm open to at least listening to different ideas.

Matt Eicheldinger: 37:21

There was a suggestion made in my second Matt Sprouts book by my editor and as soon as I read it I was like man, you nailed it. Yep, that's exactly what we need to do. And had I been like, had it been like this is my second book and it shall not be changed. Like you know, like number one I don't think that's fun for anybody in the industry, but number two, I think you're you're just missing some opportunities for growth. And so the first thing that I learned is is definitely that it has to resonate with the person reading it that editor, agent. And then that second thing is being I've learned just to be open in the process. There's no reason to come in and think that your book is the best book and it doesn't need to be changed because it's perfect. There's a lot that a reader who has read hundreds of books can give you some good feedback for, maybe a new direction. And then the third thing this isn't going to help anybody.

Matt Eicheldinger: 38:16

I thought it was funny is, when I signed my book deal, um, I ended up going to the publisher and they're like you're going to meet with the entertainment division. I was like why, why would I do that? And they're like, oh, because they pitch your book to like producers of movies and stuff. And I again I went why? Cause at the time, like no one knew who I was, I'd only had I shouldn't say I only had I was very thankful for my two book deal but there was no big pre-orders above Brittany at the time.

Matt Eicheldinger: 38:42

But what I learned is that most publishing houses will pitch your book really early to those entertainment divisions, which is so crazy to think about. Um, I heard that the the big Nate series, which is like a longstanding syndicated cartoon that has successful books. It took them over 10 years to get on television and it's like man. It took 10 years for one of the most popular comics to get on TV and again the reason was it didn't connect with the person who was looking to buy it. And that's what it all comes back to.

Beth McMullen: 39:12

But I like what you said and I think this is important for people to remember. When you do get that agent rejection or the editor rejection that says this didn't connect with me, and that is very genuine. I believe that's what they don't. They either it doesn't connect with them because they don't like it, or it just doesn't feel anything for them. Whatever the actual specific level is, I think you have to remember that it is one opinion.

Beth McMullen: 39:43

And then if I think, if you get, you know, a bunch of opinions that all say, hey, in chapter three, this whole thing goes sideways and we hate that, then that's something that you really need to think about. Is chapter three good? Is chapter three a problem? How do you deal with that? But if the general consensus that you're getting is it's not working for us, is that something that makes you do that pivot or not? That decision point between am I confident in my creative vision and I'm going to keep it because I believe in it, or do I need to pivot? I think that's a really interesting tension for people to consider, because it might be that you just haven't found the person that this is going to resonate with and when you do, it's going to be fireworks and joy and happiness for everybody. But in our profession, where we're mostly alone with our own thoughts, that can get into troubled waters, right when you're like do I stay, do I go?

Beth McMullen: 40:29

Oh my God, what do I do? So I mean interesting. I think hearing about your story adds some clarity to that about sticking to what you feel is your vision and your desired result for the story.

Matt Eicheldinger: 40:45

I love that phrase of the one you said tension, because that's really what it is. It's just sitting at home making decisions by yourself often, and it can be intimidating, but again, you learn so much about yourself in that time if you're open to it. Otherwise the process can become very frustrating and there are definitely there were days where I don't call myself a crier, but maybe I am. I cried like many times. You know when you think you're so close, or you think you've nailed it, and then it's. You know when you think you're so close or you think you've nailed it, and then it's. You know you put all your hope in one letter. It also and this sounds maybe discouraging to him it might not be time for your book. It might not be that time.

Matt Eicheldinger: 41:25

I met an author at the PLA conference who's produced a lot of books and he had had a book sitting in his. And he had had a book sitting in his you know, on his, with his manuscript, you know folder for 10 years. Nobody wanted it and then he pitched it again and then it went to auction and so you just you don't know. And there's no, I don't have a formula for when it's time to wait or when it's not time for your book yet. But that's also something to keep in mind is, you know, maybe you've worked on this project for five years. Maybe just take a break creatively and try something new Not to say you're giving up on that project, but to keep yourself fresh and trying to write something different.

Beth McMullen: 42:05

Very wise words. Have you found that not teaching and being in your year off? Do you feel that you are more productive without that structure of okay, I have to go to my classroom, I have to teach my kids, I have to do that. Do you feel any sort of being untethered, no longer being in the classroom for this duration, or have you been able to kind of figure out quickly how to use your time productively?

Matt Eicheldinger: 42:34

Like I said before, I'm learning a lot about myself, and I don't know if this is because teaching requires so many quick decisions. I've actually wondered if I have attention issues, because when I'm sitting by I'm not even kidding Like when I'm sitting by myself at home. I've been getting really easily distracted, and I wonder if it's because I don't have the stimulus that I did at school every day, and so I've had to really be diligent about how I structure my day. I know that I can write really well in the morning. I know that I can answer emails better in the afternoon. I also think I've lost some stuff leaving the classroom. I think I've lost not motivation but some inspiration, because you as a writer are always looking for new ideas and kids talk without a filter all day, and so you get a lot of ideas. But I will say teaching was extremely difficult the last four years. I'd say some of my hardest moments of my adult life have come from the last four years, and so to be able to have an opportunity to have at least a year I still don't know what I'm doing next year, but to have at least a year where I can sit and rediscover who I am in a new space, which is being an author. That is something I will never forget. I don't know what having the New York Times you know label have. I don't know if I'll get other book projects picked up, but I've gotten a taste of what it's like to be a storyteller full-time and I really, really want to keep doing it.

Matt Eicheldinger: 43:58

But if I go back to my classroom full-time, my productivity as an author will be next. It'll be pretty close to zero. I can't do both. There is no way. I was, even as a full-time teacher, coming home not my best self, to my own family, and that's hard to talk about. But when you as a teacher, if I don't plan something for tomorrow, we have nothing to do and it's very stressful. And so even though I might be talking to my kids I'm lesson planning I just can't. I can't do it anymore. So I will always be a teacher and I'm sure at some point I will be back in the educational space. There's a lot of things I think I'd like to do in higher ed. That I think would be a better balance. But man, as far as like what my future holds, I have absolutely no idea, and for two people who really like to plan. It's a bit terrifying.

Beth McMullen: 44:48

I'm sure. I'm sure, but my prediction for you is that you are only on the upward trajectory in the writing universe, and if you can figure out how to harness the same energy that you got from the classroom without the taxing part of being in the classroom, then I think you know sky's the limit.

Matt Eicheldinger: 45:11

Oh, thank you, I will hold on to that.

Beth McMullen: 45:17

So, matt, we have kept you now for a very long time and we are so, so grateful for you being here and sharing all of this vast experience with us. I think there are so many nuggets of gold for our listeners in here, so thank you again for joining us today. Listeners, remember you can find out more about Matt and his books on his website, which I'll put in the podcast notes and the blog. You can find him with his reels as well. I will make sure all of that is in the blog so you can easily find it, and in the podcast notes. And be sure to visit writerswithwrinklesnet to follow and support and share about the show. And we will see you again next week, which is April 22nd Earth Day for a Deep Dive Craft episode. We know you guys like those, so hopefully you'll join us for that. And until then, happy reading, writing and listening.