Writers With Wrinkles
Authors Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid iron out the wrinkles in writing, publishing, and everything in between . . . One podcast at a time.
Writers With Wrinkles is the go-to podcast for aspiring authors, and those in the trenches, who want to successfully publish a novel...or ten! Join us each week as we dive deep into writing and the publishing industry, providing expert interviews, insightful discussions, and practical tips. With our engaging and informative format, you'll get the guidance you need to navigate the complex world of publishing. Start your journey today!
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Writers With Wrinkles
Write Shorter Books? Here's the scoop on that...
Episode Summary
Beth and Lisa discuss their summer activities and insights from the ALA conference, emphasizing the need for shorter middle-grade books and adaptability in writing. They also announce changes to their podcast format for improved content quality.
Key Discussion Points
- Summer Vacation Reflections: Beth and Lisa reminisce about their childhood summer vacations and discuss how the tradition of summer vacation reports in school can be exclusionary.
- ALA Conference Insights: Lisa shares her experience at the ALA conference, highlighting the rejuvenating atmosphere and the importance of networking with librarians, editors, and fellow authors.
- Trends in Middle-Grade Fiction: The demand for shorter middle-grade books (around 35,000-40,000 words) and the increasing inclusion of illustrations to cater to shorter attention spans.
- Importance of Adaptability in Writing: The necessity for authors to stay updated with current trends, listen to feedback from beta readers and industry professionals, and adapt their writing accordingly.
- Podcast Updates: The podcast will now feature two episodes per month focusing on quality content, including interviews with industry professionals and craft-focused episodes.
Conclusion
Beth and Lisa emphasize the importance of adapting to industry trends and listening to feedback to succeed in writing. They announce changes to their podcast format to ensure high-quality content and share valuable insights from the ALA conference.
Mentioned Links
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Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season three, episode 29. And today we are talking about what we did on our summer vacation. Do you remember in elementary school when you'd come back after summer vacation and the teacher would make everybody report on what they did on their summer vacation and it was like the classrooms were always boiling hot right, because you know it would still be summer and you'd be sitting there listening to people drone on and on about whatever it is that they were doing in their summer vacation, which was mostly like I went to the lake and I went swimming, yeah, pretty much I am and this is digging deep or going into a sad place but I was always that kid.
Lisa Schmid:We never did anything because we were really, you know, I had a single mom, we were poor, and so I would always listen to people and be like, oh my gosh, like people actually go to places and do things. So I always I feel like now that I'm a grownup, I think it's such a bad thing to ask for teachers, to ask kids, because all it does there's always those kids in the classroom that feel diminished and sad and they have no.
Beth McMullen:I don't know if they do it anymore. I would be really surprised, for the reasons that you just said, if they even do it anymore. I mean, it was definitely a thing in the seventies and eighties and whenever it was that we were young, but I don't know. It would seem like something you'd want to kind of stay away from nowadays Exactly.
Lisa Schmid:It's just, it's sad, it just that's, yeah, that's, I don't want to Anyway. So let's continue on with the episode.
Beth McMullen:Enough therapy, but all right, we're done with our therapy session For our purposes. This question is mostly me wanting you to tell us about ALA, because Lisa was there and I wasn't. Tell us about ALA because Lisa was there and I wasn't and there was so much social media about it and so many posts from writers that I know about going and having so much fun and seeing all these people. So tell me kind of what you got out of it.
Lisa Schmid:You know it's one of it. I think I've said this a million times. It was a bucket list thing to be invited by your publisher to come and sign books and sit on a panel. It was huge. I felt one, I felt honored to be there. And you are surrounded by librarians and it's you know, we go about our's. Be honest, nobody cares. So to go to a place where you're, you're with people who think that what you do matters, is huge, it's very uplifting, it rejuvenated me. It's like, okay, this is why I write. And sometimes I know we all say that this is why I write, this is why I write, but you forget, when you're in just sitting in your sad little room staring at your computer, the fun, the fun aspect of, and then it does impact people. You know what?
Beth McMullen:I mean yeah, totally, totally, and I think that's a really good point. You know you're there to promote your book which remember everybody, heart and souls, july 23,. Go pre order it right now. You're there to promote your book which remember everybody, heart and souls, july 23rd. Go pre-order it right now. You're there to promote your book, but you're also there to participate in this community which, as you said, we spend most of our time in sad little rooms by ourselves. So to be able to be out and involved in talking and meeting and just that energy that you get, that you can then take home, I think that is so cool. That's what I've always loved about conferences it's like a pre-selected group of your people, and I think it's.
Lisa Schmid:I've done a bunch of the big conferences where you go to like SCBWI and you're surrounded by and that's always good energy. But there was something about this that just felt even more magical. And I was just walking around and you're surrounded by books and people and editors and you know publicists and authors and librarians and you know it's just it's an amazing place to be and everybody is is there for the right reasons, and so it's just an exciting. It's an exciting place and they're giving away books.
Beth McMullen:I know, it's like we're all junkies and you come back with a stack of 25 books and you think to yourself I can't actually fit these in my suitcase.
Lisa Schmid:Well, and that's one of the, I was watching all these librarians like they're just lugging, you know these big trolleys behind them with you know all these books and I'm thinking how the heck do they get these home? And there's actually like a station where you can go and have them all shipped, shipped back to where you're going.
Beth McMullen:That's brilliant it is brilliant.
Lisa Schmid:And some people were just like, oh, I just bought, you know, brought an extra suitcase and just you know whatever. They're just like taking stacks and stacks and I probably brought home probably 10. And that was it. I'm like I can't keep going around, you know, and people were just like tossing books at me. I'm like I can't take them anymore. And sitting on the panel was really exciting for me to be with three other people it was two other authors and an illustrator for my publisher and just having a chance to meet them and, you know, learn about their books coming out, learning about their process, yeah, just the whole environment was really. It's a thrilling place to go to, especially it's the big one.
Beth McMullen:Do you think that so you were a participant in the conference, so you weren't just a straight up attendee? Do you think, as an author say, you don't have a book out, or you're planning on having a book out, but it's not on deck yet, do you think it's worthwhile going? So if you're, you know Jane Ryder and you're in the trenches, is it worth going there? Are there contacts you can make that you think will be helpful, like the networking stuff? So imagine you're not actually a participant in the conference, a panelist, all of those things, but you're just a regular old person. Do you think it would be worth the effort to go? Absolutely?
Lisa Schmid:regular person, do you think it would be worth the effort to go? Absolutely Like it's one of those places where, when there are a lot of editors there and it's it's not like you want to go around and pitch your book or do anything like that, that's probably inappropriate. You want to meet them and introduce yourself at their booth and just make that contact and that connection. But also hearing what what librarians want, that's huge. One of my biggest takeaways as a middle grade author was they want shorter books. Like stop writing these 80,000 word middle grades.
Beth McMullen:They don't want them. I'm so on board with that for all books. Well, our attention spans are too short.
Lisa Schmid:Right. They just don't want them and people keep writing them and they are really hungry for shorter middle grade and my one I'm working on right now, my first two were 45,000 words and I was targeting it for 45,000. And what really solidified my word count for me by the time I got home was, you know, hearing all these librarians talk about we want 35,000 word count. That's the sweet spot. So I decided to cut a huge chunk out of the center of my book in what I thought was going to happen, because I was like you know what? That was, just kind of a little side street I was going to take to like keep the mystery going, but I just thought you know what, I can cut that out and that will get me down to probably 35,000 words and I think they're getting more on board, especially with, like, with middle grade is more illustrations. You know, to break up the, the, the, you know, the narrative, the, the, the text, and make it more visually appealing.
Lisa Schmid:Everybody has a short attention span and I think that they're even calling for it, like you said, in adult fiction. So that's, that's a really good thing. And there's all these panels. You can go in and listen in on my panel and I was on to spooky middle grades. So if you're an author, you can find panels to sit in and learn and you can just learn and listen. You can just soak in everything that you're hearing around. You know all the different breakout sessions that are happening and there's a million happening all through the conference. You can just walk in and sit in a session and if you're not getting anything from it, you can just walk a further, a little bit further down and there's another session going on. So it's definitely I think it's one of those things that's even, if not more, just as valuable as a writer's conference.
Beth McMullen:That I mean just that little nugget of librarians who are really you know it's a little bit different for middle grade they are one set of gatekeepers. As an adult, a grownup author, you don't really have direct contact with the kids. They're these gatekeepers in between and those are the teachers and the parents and the librarian. So if the librarians are saying very clearly, please deliver us shorter books, wow, there you go, like, don't? I mean? When we were talking to the editor, the Andrews McNeil editor last week, hannah Kimber, she said just give me what I'm asking for. If I say please give me this in your submission, then give what they asked for. So if you know that these editors are going to be wanting these shorter books because the librarians are waving their arms in the air and say give us the shorter books, do that, deliver that, then you're putting yourself one step ahead in the whole game. So that's like. That's like worth its weight in gold for attending a conference like this.
Lisa Schmid:And I think one of the biggest mistakes I see with people who are querying or it's just that I've come across when I'm talking to people who are in the querying trenches is thinking that they can buck the norms, like my story. It's this way and I think it should be this way. It's my story and I get that to a certain degree. But if you want your story to sell, you need to be listening to what they want.
Lisa Schmid:So and I just saw on Twitter, just right before I came on, was there was an editor from I think it was Walker books, and she tweeted out my kingdom for a 40,000 word middle grade and just started cracking up. They're crying out for help. They're just like stop sending me, you know, these long manuscripts and if I see and I'm the same way if I pick up a book, a middle grade book, and I see just texts like long paragraphs, my mind explodes and I just immediately put it down. I do not want it. I don't have the attention span anymore and I think you know, if I'm that way, and a lot of adults are that way, kids are that way, when I know I've got a 16 year old, their attention span, all kids attention span. They're just, you know, they're little.
Beth McMullen:And they're used to visuals. They're used to a visual component to everything you know videos and et cetera. So I think it's interesting that you are seeing kind of a blend of a straight middle grade book and a graphic novel. So how can we get it's still a middle grade novel, but we're going to add a bunch of illustrations that'll break up the text, that'll add another level or element to it, that'll make it more visually interesting. So I think that's, you know, also something to think about if you're in the, you know, in the writing or submitting process is is there enough visual possibility for what you're writing? And I think it's a good thing to keep in mind. And also, if somebody is out there saying I want a $40,000, $40,000, 40,000 word, maybe it turns into $40,000. I do not know, but a 40,000 word manuscript, give that to them and say, hey, 40,000 word manuscript. Give that to them and say, hey, I saw that you were looking for a 40,000 word middle grade. Here it is. I mean, come on, this is low hanging fruit. People take advantage.
Lisa Schmid:And if everything, if somebody is telling you, a beta reader is telling you something, listen to them. That's another one of my takeaways. I've read some manuscripts where people don't want to listen to what I you know, and if I say you know what this isn't, because of this I don't think this is working. You need to listen to your people. I mean, don't discount what your beta readers say and there's so much that you can cut out. Like cutting out, streamlining your story is what it is all about right now. Streamlining it, keeping it like a tight pace, is what matters Really, really tight pace.
Lisa Schmid:And speaking of this is a really interesting one of the other authors that was on the panel with me, with Andrews McNeil. Their book was is Monsterton, monsterton, monsterton, and it's a really unique concept. So she is. It's the author and the illustrator were there together and the book she wrote. It's kind of a scary like monster, you know little monster story or whatever. But when it got to the scary parts, all of a sudden it would turn into a graphic novel and the graphic novel like would break the tension you know to like give them that kind of that respite, that like oh, can you know, I just need a moment, and then you know the prose would start again, and so I just thought God, that's so fascinating that they came up with this concept, and I think there's gonna be more of that kind of content, and so, as a writer, I think you need to be really considering how to make that shift so that you can stay in the game.
Beth McMullen:That is very, very good advice and hopefully everybody is listening and paying attention. Because you're right. I think that if the if the world is giving you input, Because you're right. I think that if the world is giving you input, say it's from your beta readers, say it's an editor you follow on Twitter, say it's information that you got at a conference or a writing retreat or something. Don't automatically be in a defensive posture and dismiss it. And maybe you still are like that is not something I'm willing to do, but if you think about it with an open mind, you might end up making changes that get you across the finish line. So you're totally right about all that Stay open, absorb the information, see what people are talking about, stay plugged in, and then you come away with things like oh, I better make this middle grade manuscript shorter, because that's what people are wanting right now, so super valuable and definitely linked to your potential success.
Lisa Schmid:Well, and one more thing I would offer up is that if you are looking at what your comps are, that used to be five years. It's now down to two. So don't look at what was selling five years ago, because that is so in the rear view mirror. So much has changed in the last few years. Look at what's selling in the last two years and analyze that. What's working, what's selling.
Lisa Schmid:So that was a big thing I took away also, and because we did that was what we all been trained on. You know your comp should be five years and that's just a thing of the past. So if you're out there trying to figure out what's going on and I just saw a thing on Twitter where this gal's like I don't know why my book isn't selling. It's not, you know, I need somebody to have another set of eyes on it, because what's happening? I have no idea. And hopefully that person takes whatever advice she gets and doesn't take it with a grain of salt and really absorbs it. And I think so many times people just need to open up their mind, their mind, and take in what the world is telling them to do.
Beth McMullen:And publishing is changing so fast it's changing it feels like it changes every 10 minutes. So that means that if you are writing a manuscript and trying to sell it, you have to be plugged into what's going on, like what you just said. So look at recent comps. They're not interested in what sold five years ago because it was a totally different environment and it may have sold gangbusters five years ago, but now it's not going to do anything. Or the trend has changed or the focus of interest has changed, or the popular genres have changed. Whatever it is, you've got to stay on top of that.
Beth McMullen:I'm not saying right to genre, I would never suggest that but you do have to be aware so that when you're pitching your manuscript, you can position it in the current environment, the existing environment. What does that look like and how do you play into that? How do you fit into that? So you don't want to leave that to the agent that you're querying or an editor or whoever like. You want to tell them this is how I fit into this environment. So that tells them you're paying attention, you're absorbing the information and you're adjusting. So all good stuff. You had fun. There were like lots of famous people at ALA. I kept seeing people pop up that I was like oh wow, I would have hunted that person down.
Lisa Schmid:There was a lot of people. It was yeah, it's an amazing event and it's you're all everyone's in the hotels right down there, and so you know you're seeing people. I saw lots of people where it's just like, and I didn't go up and talk to them, I was just like, ooh, I spy you. I know who you are. So it was it's very much you know, and the librarians are all fun and crazy.
Beth McMullen:And they're just excited. Fun crew. They're a fun crew, super fun. They know how to have a good time, which I totally, I totally love. That's awesome. Yeah, all right, that's cool. That is a cool way to spend your summer vacation. What's you? What's going on with Beth McMullen? Nothing.
Beth McMullen:I just came back from many, many weeks of youth sports travel, let's just say, with my youngest kid. So we've been all over the place and every place we went was boiling hot. That is the one theme of my summer thus far boiling hot. But what I was trying to do while we were traipsing from Delaware to Pennsylvania, to Massachusetts, to New Jersey, to wherever, I was getting my query letter and my synopsis of my latest manuscript in order to start querying agents in September.
Beth McMullen:So everybody knows how terrible it is to write a query letter and how terrible it is to write a synopsis to write a query letter and how terrible it is to write a synopsis, and I haven't done it in a really long time and they are still just as terrible. I'm here to report things haven't changed, but I got them done, they're done, and now they're like they're pretty good, I'm pretty happy with them, and so now they're going to sit there and wait until everybody comes back to work and publishing in, like September. So that's what I've been doing, you know, in the airports and the hotel rooms and the this, that and the other. Not nearly as fun as what you were up to, but a necessary evil had to be done.
Lisa Schmid:And I think this is news to everyone that you, beth McMullen, are queering. You're, you've had a very, you have so many books out and you're a successful author and you have suddenly found yourself in the queering trenches.
Beth McMullen:Yes, I am. I am leaving middle middle grade. I'm not no longer writing middle grade, I'm going back to adult, which is what I started out doing. But I'm not. I've switched genres. I used to write spy thrillers and now I have moved more toward contemporary romance with a little bit of an edge, I hope, yeah. So actually I'm psyched. I'm like I'm ready. I feel like I'm at the point in my career where I got nothing to prove. So it's all about what I want to do and I was really excited to write this manuscript. It was actually so much fun I had kind of forgotten that writing could be fun. I loved it. It was such a blast. The people who have read it have been predominantly really positive. So that's good. And yeah, I'm ready. I mean I'm ready, but I can't go anywhere yet. Like I still. It's still July. I still have plenty of time to obsess over every little word in the synopsis and every little word in the query letter. So you know if I'm like stark raving mad by the end of August.
Lisa Schmid:That is why I feel good about this. I just I'm. I just know that you're going to get somebody, and somebody who's going to be really lucky to have you. So I am. I'm sending you my positive penny vibes, thank you.
Beth McMullen:I like positive vibes. Everybody send them my way and I really liked this book, so I hope it has legs. We shall see In other news. We here at Writers with Wrinkles Incorporated HQ have at least it's laughing have made some changes to how we're going to go forward. We have been bringing you new content every week for the last, however, many years, and we have decided to go for quality over quantity.
Beth McMullen:So what we're going to do is one episode per month that focuses on an agent or an editor or a publishing professional, and one episode per month that is a craft episode where we talk about the nuts and bolts of writing. This gives us more time to find good guests and it gives us more time to make sure the episodes themselves are up to standard, and it just makes it a little bit less intense for Lisa and I, who are doing many other things at the same time. So that's going to start immediately. We may end up with we may end up with an extra episode in either July or August I can't remember because we have people teed up already, but for now we are going to two episodes per month and we hope that this will work for you guys.
Beth McMullen:We know that the episodes with agents and editors and publishing professionals are by and away the most popular. People really like those because you get these little nuggets of gold that are really actionable. So we're going to focus on that and hopefully that will be good. Feels like big news. You know what I think it'll be great.
Lisa Schmid:I was just after we recorded our last episode with Hannah Kimber, who was my editor over at Andrews McNeil episode with Hannah Kimber, who was my editor over at Andrews McNeil. She offered up some of the best advice and it was so. There were so many things that she said that are so beneficial to somebody who is either on sub or in the querying trenches and I knew that we had made the right decision that we you know we're taking up 30 minutes or so of your time with each episode. We really need to be bringing the content that is going to serve your goal of getting published or writing a book, whatever your goal is. It's important that we provide that content that's going to help you get to the finish line. So that just really reassured me and you know, if you haven't heard Hannah's episode, go listen to it because she offers up some really, really good advice.
Beth McMullen:You could jot down five or six things that you could immediately put into practice that were going to improve your chances of getting where you're going. It was a really great episode and I hope everybody has taken the time to listen to it, and if they haven't go, do that now. So I think that's it. I think that's all we got on this hot July afternoon for our dear listeners. Our next episode on deck is Alonzo Fuller, who is actually working with Lisa. So tell us a little bit about Alonzo so people know what to expect from that episode.
Lisa Schmid:Alonzo is the marketing specialist at Andrews McNeil and he is I got, I had the opportunity to meet him at ALA and he's amazing. He just handles all the marketing behind the scenes that gets your books out in front of people and it's he's so impressive and both in everything that he's done to support the book and support me and support all the authors and he was there at the at ALA and it was just a delight to talk to him and one of you know I'm we're hoping that we can gleam some little nuggets that you can use in your everyday marketing of your book or even just in your in your writing career, then how to best, you know, put your best foot forward, and just the things that he does as a marketing professional. So I'm excited to see every or hear everything he has to say, because he's just. I fell in love with Alonzo Fuller.
Beth McMullen:We hope you will join us for that one. He is up next our next episode and anything else to add, lisa, before we sign off here.
Lisa Schmid:Just one more thing. If you haven't ordered Heart and Souls yet, I would love for you to pre-order my new book Right now. Barnes Noble is having their 25% off pre-order sale for their rewards members, and if you're a premium rewards member you get 10%, so that's 35% off. That's a great thing, and that just goes through July 17th.
Beth McMullen:All right, friends, we will see you next episode and until then, happy reading, writing and listening. Bye, lisa Beth, bye guys.
