Writers With Wrinkles
Authors Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid iron out the wrinkles in writing, publishing, and everything in between . . . One podcast at a time.
Writers With Wrinkles is the go-to podcast for aspiring authors, and those in the trenches, who want to successfully publish a novel...or ten! Join us each week as we dive deep into writing and the publishing industry, providing expert interviews, insightful discussions, and practical tips. With our engaging and informative format, you'll get the guidance you need to navigate the complex world of publishing. Start your journey today!
Visit www.WritersWithWrinkles.net for more info.
Writers With Wrinkles
You're an 'Orphaned' Author. Now What?
In this episode of Writers with Wrinkles, Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid tackle the harsh realities of getting "orphaned" in publishing and offer practical tips for authors to navigate setbacks when their editors leave mid-project. They discuss proactive steps authors can take to protect their work, advocate for themselves, and manage expectations in an unpredictable industry.
Key Discussion Points
- What It Means to be Orphaned: Beth and Lisa explain how "orphaning" happens in publishing—when an acquiring editor leaves the publisher, leaving the author without a primary advocate.
- The Realities of Publishing: Both hosts emphasize the frequent disconnect between authors' expectations and the business-focused decisions of publishers. They highlight the importance of managing realistic expectations, as publishers can only do so much for each title.
- Navigating Challenges: Advice on recognizing red flags, such as slow response times or lack of feedback, and leveraging support from literary agents to push back and secure necessary attention for one's work.
- The Value of Self-Advocacy: Tips on self-promotion and assertiveness in the publishing process, encouraging authors to view their book as a product that they need to actively support.
- Considering Alternatives: For authors who feel unsupported, self-publishing is explored as a viable option, especially when traditional publishing fails to provide adequate resources or guidance.
Conclusion
Beth and Lisa underscore that authors must take an active role in their publishing journey, stay realistic about industry limitations, and advocate persistently for their work. By understanding the industry’s constraints, authors can better navigate challenges and even consider alternative publishing routes if traditional paths fall short.
Greetings and salutations book lovers. Welcome to Wellness Thru Reading. A podcast...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Visit the Website
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for socials and more!
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season three, episode 38, and today we're answering questions. Quick note on how to submit your questions Visit our website for the link text from the podcast notes Scream across time zones. We will absolutely hear you, because Lisa and I never actually sleep anymore. We will put all this in the podcast notes so you can find it easily and get those questions to us. We have. We have a couple of good ones for today, Don't you think?
Lisa Schmid:I think they're really good and it's one of those. It's those things that it happens to people and you hear people complaining and talking about it, but then we recently had a friend that got orphaned, and for those who don't know what that means, so it's when you are acquired at a publisher, you have an acquiring editor and sometimes that acquiring editor leaves and so now you have no champion at the publisher. Your book basically gets shoved onto another well-meaning editor's desk who's already got a full plate of books they loved and they acquired, and now they have to work on your book and you get shuffled to the bottom of the pile and become an afterthought. I wish that I was hearing like different experiences from people, but it's always a very consistent experience. So we recently had a mutual friend that has just gone through a horrific experience and we were going to talk about that and then solutions that can help you if this happens to you.
Beth McMullen:Yes, it is very disturbing. I have been orphaned multiple times and you take it in the beginning very personally, because you go into this relationship with the acquiring editor in good faith. It is not personal. That's the first thing. The editor is not leaving you.
Beth McMullen:They always have really good reasons for needing to jump ship and some of those may not feel meaningful to you at the time but, trust me, they are Editors, would love to stay with you the whole time. They loved your book, that's why they acquired it. But, on the other hand, sometimes changes happen in life and you just have to make a move. But it does feel shocking and I would say that my first reaction when this first happened to me my very first book, very first book I just panicked because I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know this was a thing that even happened and it's very, very much a thing. So, yeah, I mean we have this story of this, this mutual friend. You actually know her a bit better than I do, so I will let you kind of walk everyone through those specifics.
Lisa Schmid:This poor gal. She was acquired and then her editor immediately left and she could put on somebody else's desk and I know she loved that editor. But the editor didn't have time. She didn't get an edit letter, she got no developmental edits. She basically went into copy editing for the most part and the first copy editor was so bad that she had to request a second copy editor. And the second time they went through copy edits was all done in past pages. And for anybody who doesn't know what past pages are, it's basically it's when the book's been formatted and there's no like you can't go in and make changes to the document. You have to literally kind of highlight it and then create a separate document. And when there's hundreds of edits, of copy edits, it's a really laborious and it just shouldn't happen.
Beth McMullen:Well, and the truth of the matter is, when you get past pages, there should be minimal changes done at that stage of the game. What you should be changing is maybe they forgot a word or there's an extra word, tiny, tiny little things that most readers will gloss right over and not even notice. So the fact that this person who asked not to be named, so we are not naming her ended up having to do well, the whole series of events. When I heard this story, it kind of blew my mind. If there was something called publishing malpractice, this would be it right, because here this person entered into the contract with the publisher.
Beth McMullen:Her editor left no shade on the editor. As I said, this happens. People move around, publishing jobs are not well paid, the people are overworked and if they see a better opportunity elsewhere, of course they're going to take it. No shade for that. But she found herself in a position where nobody was tending to the details. The timeline that she had been given was neglected. So suddenly you're barreling towards your publication date, which hasn't changed, and you haven't even received feedback on the draft in any form. I mean, when I heard that this person didn't get an editorial letter of any variety, even notes within the pages. I was actually stunned, and it takes a lot to stun me, as you well know.
Lisa Schmid:Yeah, it was. It was a hot mess and you know part of me I was once. You know I would get the phone calls with her crying and you know everything that was happening throughout the whole process and it was pretty horrific, like I and I've heard we've heard a lot of stories like off the air from other writers that things that have happened and you're like, yeah, that's bad and but this girl really got put through the rainer and so it was.
Beth McMullen:It got to remember to that people this was a first book and you go into that first book with so much excitement and enthusiasm but you're also really naive because you don't know what's coming. You haven't gone to this rodeo before. So I think that it was almost worse, because this person was so excited for this book. They had worked on this book a long time and to finally get to the point that everybody's striving to get to and then have it just go completely upside down.
Lisa Schmid:Yeah, she was, um, she was basically an afterthought to everything and I, I, I know to this day, I mean, she's scarred, she's like I don't even know if I want to be here anymore. Like this is this is not fun. She felt like she know if I want to be here anymore. Like this is this is not fun. She felt like she. You know, you feel like when you've arrived at a publisher, that you've arrived to the promised land, it's like I'm here, they've bought my book, I have arrived, and then you get crapped on and it doesn't feel good and so it just. It was a rough ride for her and hopefully she'll, you know, like a hangover. She'll get over it and forget about it someday.
Beth McMullen:Well, I think it makes you very tentative about entering into that relationship again of people who have gone through the traditional publishing process and come out feeling really neglected or abused and gone off to self-publish with great success. So the question becomes what is the value of traveling path A versus path B? And somebody like this person who has gotten had gone through this very negative experience, maybe self-publishing is the way they go, just because they felt like they had to do everything themselves anyway. Right, you know, it does become an option for people who feel like they just didn't get any attention or even the basic attention. I mean, this case was abnormal because even when I was orphaned and I was orphaned well, my first book had three editors. So by the time it came to publication, the acquiring editor was like a distant memory. The second editor quit because she wanted to start a catering food truck, right, and I was like wow, am I that bad that they're really just willing to do anything to get away from me? I don't know. And the third editor was like I don't think I I mean, I don't think she read the book and again, no shade. I was such an afterthought to this editor. She had her own stuff and I was so far removed.
Beth McMullen:But again, that book really was on the struggle bus and then it happened again with the sequel. I had two editors. My next book deal, I had two editors and the second editor was, you know, actually I respected her because she said upfront you are so low on the on the list of things that I care about right now that like that's just where we're at Right, which was true, you know. And then I kind of knew what to expect, which was basically nothing. So I wasn't surprised. But again, there's so many things in publishing that you can control, but there are big things that you can't.
Lisa Schmid:Yeah, and I think one of the things that you know, when I was talking to our friend, what she would have done differently and that's what I wanted to convey today Like what she would have done differently had she known, like how bad it was going to be and I think she knew it was. She was in trouble already when she had her first Zoom call and the editor hadn't even read the book and I'm like, okay, there's your red flag, Number one, and um, and then things just, you know, she didn't get anything for like a year and then everything was like this fast paced nightmare of just garbage. And but the thing that you know as an author, so many times and I've done it, I'm sure Well, I don't know if you've done it, you're better at standing up for yourself, but I've, you know, whenever I've been in two publishing contracts and you go, you bend over backwards Cause you're just like I want to be like that author that they're like we enjoy working with her and we'll work with her again. So you don't want to be that squeaky wheel that is going to cause problems. That they're like, yeah, we're done with you. Or you know, you want it to be a great experience for the editor and for the publisher.
Lisa Schmid:And so what, what she should have done and and in retrospect, is, you know, having a meeting, an emergency meeting, right away with her agent. That was she's like I wish we would have sat down and like strategized for what was to come or what were the possibilities, and then also seeing her agent including her on all the steps, because I think she was trying to resolve them, um, on her own, without getting her agent involved. Cause you're like I'm a grownup, I, why am I?
Beth McMullen:you know, I should just be handling this, also because it's a debut book, right? Um, you don't really know, right. You kind of have that sense of well, maybe this is the normal process when your editor leaves and you get added to somebody else's list. So I think, trusting your gut, that if something feels weird or wrong you're kind of raising your hand and saying, is this really the way it's supposed to be going? And your agent will have limited ability to do stuff right. There's only so much they can do. They can't make the editor move you up the list to make you more prominent in their day-to-day, but they can help you sort of navigate step-by-step-by-step and do at least some things to make you feel like you're more in control.
Beth McMullen:The first thing my agent said to me the very first time that my first editor left was this happens to everybody at least once or twice. I mean, and you know, for those of us who are really lucky, it happens over and over again, but it's not uncommon. So you're definitely not alone and I think that making sure that you are paying extra attention to everything that's going on, that when a date is coming up, you're making sure to be really annoying to the editor, as in you owe me feedback on this day. Am I getting it? Am I getting it? Am I getting it? Like, be a little bit pushy and annoying, that's totally fine, because nobody is going to love your book more than you.
Beth McMullen:So if you're not out there waving your arms in the air about it. Nobody else is going to.
Lisa Schmid:Yeah, and I think, with you know, once she really got her agent engaged, her agent was on like scheduling phone calls with editor and managing editor and she you know she does she jumped in, but at that point it was so late in the game that her, her agent can only do so much. You know what I mean and so I think it's one of those things that just from the very beginning, the first red flag that waves its ugly head, um, let your agent know so that they can jump into the mix and stay involved throughout the whole process. So you've seen them on like important communications, like if there's like a problem, so you're seeing your agent so that they know and then they can follow up and say has this been taken care of?
Beth McMullen:And they may have limited ability to do much, but at least they're in the process, so when they can do something, they're there to do it, as opposed to you then being too late to tell them and they can't do anything. Right, they are your agent. The very name suggests that they are advocating for you, so let them do that, that they are advocating for you, so let them do that. And, of course, most agents I would actually say all agents probably have experience with this. So make sure you use that experience, make sure they know what's happening, because a lot of times an agent's not gonna be involved in your day-to-day conversations with your editor. So make sure that the ones that are relevant to the ongoing process and the success, potentially, of your book, then they're, they are engaged in that, they are involved in that and that they know everything that's going on in the background.
Lisa Schmid:Well, and the other thing is like if you don't speak up, they'll never know how bad it is and they'll keep submitting to that same publisher too. It's just. It's one of those things where it's like their needs you just you need to have your agent involved, they need to be aware of what's going on, and so that it's you know. It's again, it's a cautionary tale, like do you know, in the future, do I want to put somebody else on that desk or do I want to send them there? Because my client just went through. You know this situation, and so I think you know for everyone who's been orphaned and who has been through a bad experience, and you're wondering if you want to stay. I think it's just where you need a moment to just step back and know that there are really good experiences out there.
Beth McMullen:Yeah, totally, and I mean, some people will go a long time without being orphaned, or maybe forever, and that you know good for them. I wish I was that person. But when it does happen, you can, you know, sit in the corner and rend your garments for a little while and then you just have to get up and deal with it, because it is the reality and the person who is leaving, the editor who is leaving, they are going to walk out that door and that's it. Then you are left standing there trying to figure out what to do, and writing is, you know, the fun part, the writing. The book house is doing everything they told you they were going to do. You know, that's just, that's just the business. And if you don't like that business, then do your writing. But make sure that you're remembering you're doing it for yourself and that you're not going to necessarily travel that path.
Lisa Schmid:And that kind of leads to the other part of our conversation where lately, and I think during COVID, the waters became even rougher, so to speak, and I know so many people like every day I'm having conversations or email exchanges with somebody who's like I'm so bitter and jaded I'm just done. So bitter and jaded I'm, I'm just done. Um, you know, I saw something we both saw on um Reds that um and and it's funny she's a local, she's a local author. I'm having drinks with her next week. She just posted she's like I'm.
Lisa Schmid:So I all the you know I've been writing for 15 years and all the joy is gone because of publishing. Like she's been put through the ringer, and I am hearing those conversations every single day and it's just like what is going on in publishing, that they are are not understanding that the writer is their commodity, that that is the person that's creating their works, and yet these people keep just and really like successful authors that have, you know, put out several books that are just like I'm done. You get abused so many times and then you're just pulling the ripcord saying I'm out. And so I guess one of the things that we wanted to convey was if you're feeling this way. You're not alone, you're not a bad writer, you're not a bad person. You didn't do anything wrong. But you do need to speak up for yourself and you need to find a way to navigate it and know that it's a possibility anytime you enter into a contract.
Beth McMullen:Yeah, I think too, there is a disconnect between what publishers can realistically be expected to do and what authors think the publisher is going to do, and what I mean by that. Here's a little example. So say, you sign on with a big publisher to publish your new novel and you're doing your marketing and sales call and they're talking about all these things that they're going to do for your book, and then you get this beautiful arc and on the back of the arc is, you know, national book tour, social media blitz of messaging and this laundry list of things. Now, the truth is that those are ideas and possibilities. They are not guarantees. But I think that so many authors see that and I see this posted all the time where people are like I'm getting a book tour because it says so on my ARC and I'm like you're going to end up heartbroken because this is not reality.
Beth McMullen:And a publisher might say to you we love this book so much. We see a long relationship and we see you growing with us. We want to be part of that journey. The truth is that may very well happen if your book is a success. Remember, publishing is a business. I think we forget that sometimes. If you're successful, that journey will be lovely.
Beth McMullen:If your book bombs which is like 95% of books that get published don't even earn their advance back I don't know if that figure is right, but it's ballpark right that journey is going to end really fast because they're going to stop betting on you. It is no longer a long-term relationship where they're like, okay, well, this book didn't do great, but we'll just build on that and keep going. No, they're going to switch to somebody else who, potentially, is going to have a big fit, a big hit. No, I'm going to have the big fit. That's the wrong thing. They're going to have a big hit, but I mean, that is just business. Think about any other business product, not books. That's just the way it works, right, if you are an A-list author, you're going to have a different experience than if you're B-list.
Beth McMullen:If you're B-list, you are on the struggle bus from moment number one and you have to decide, based on that reality, if it's something that you want to do that you can handle, that the upside is enough to balance the downside. What are your goals? What does writing give you? You have to answer all of these questions and then I think for me, having been in this for so long, like I have been really excited and I've been really bitter, but now I'm just kind of like I see it for what it is and it makes me.
Beth McMullen:I'm not angry about it anymore because I see the reality of publishing and you really do need to understand the reality rather than what you're hearing people say to you about okay, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, they would love to do all that for you. They can't do all that for everybody. It's just not realistic and I think that if you can handle reality, then you can just go along and have as positive an experience as possible. If the reality just kind of doubles you over in agony, maybe that's not the path. You're going to be doing a lot of the same work anyway. You're going to have to pay for some editing and polishing of your manuscript and finding a cover and distribution channels and whatnot all of that stuff. But at the end of the day you're in full control of everything, as opposed to feeling like you've handed the reins over to somebody who didn't really want to take them.
Lisa Schmid:Well, and I think also, I think all publishers and editors have good intentions, totally, but they are so overwhelmed and I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes at any publishing house, but you can tell that they're overwhelmed Like it's just, it's across the board, universally, from every single editor or writer I've ever spoken to. They're just like. You know, I was just talking to somebody yesterday. I'm like how are you doing? What's going on with your book? She has two books in contract right now and she's like yeah, I'm being ghosted on both of them. I haven't, you know, I haven't heard anything from my editor in months. I have no idea where my edits are. I mean, and that is a normal, that's two books and one of these books is like she's an A-list. You know what I mean. Well, I don't know if she's A-list, but she's just like yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
Beth McMullen:It? I don't know, I don't know, it's it's true, it's true. And I think that I think that editors are called upon to wear hats that are not necessarily in their wheelhouse, so skills that they need, that they don't necessarily have, that they're being asked to use. So I mean, I've had an editor who was an amazing editor. She would look at the manuscript and the things that I was like I don't know, I can't quite figure out what's not working. She could zero.
Beth McMullen:She was like laser focused on the stuff and her editorial letters were a roadmap to just vastly improving the book. Even if it was a manuscript that I thought was pretty good, she would elevate it every single time. She was excellent. She still is excellent, she's still out there doing excellent work. But the stuff that she also had to do for the book, the sales and marketing stuff, the timeline stuff, where the you know where everything is going to be, how much time you get to manage your edits, all of those things, those she was not as good at, and because that that wasn't really the skillset that attracted her to publishing in the first place, her to publishing in the first place. So when you're asking editors to wear all these hats. Inevitably something is going to fall by the wayside. I totally get that. It's too much work, no-transcript.
Lisa Schmid:I think anytime we've had an editor on it's a taco truck. I'm there. Anytime we've had an editor on, I've always been shocked to hear, like how much stuff they have to do, like just in the acquisitions process and the business side of it, and you know just. And then you add the editing and managing their writers, and I mean just everything that they have to do and then getting you know they're, they're mapping out their time, and then they get you know one or two manuscripts shoved onto their thing and they're just like I can, just I have visuals of their heads exploding.
Lisa Schmid:So this isn't, you know, this isn't, like you said, shade on any editors. This is the industry, and there's something inherently broken when you know, every time I talk to a writer, they are so fried and so burnout and feel so abused by the process that they just want to leave. You know, and that's I mean. I think we've talked to maybe a handful of writers on the show that are like this is the best thing ever, and they are A-list authors where you're just sitting there listening to their experience going oh my God, I'm like what is happening over in this magical land.
Beth McMullen:It's night and day. It is. It is night and day. It's really different. It's really different. Night and day. It's really. It's really different. It's really different. And it's again it's. God bless you if you can get there and and enjoy the ride. But the vast, vast majority of working writers are not in that group and they're dealing with a very different universe. And I mean I guess the takeaway is to just really understand reality and go forth knowing potentially what is going to happen, so when it does happen, you don't feel blindsided or shocked to be in the situation and it also allows you to plan things to prop up your effort. Again. Nobody loves your book more than you. Nobody wants it to succeed more than you. So you are going to have to get in the game. You cannot leave all the work to the publishing house because they can't do it. They can't do it. You have to be ready. You have to have a plan of your own for how you're going to support your book.
Lisa Schmid:I think one of the other things that and I had this is another conversation I had with an author offline that you, when this happens, when you get orphaned or you're, you know you're getting shuffled to the side and they're not. You're not getting the same kind of attentionuffled to the side and they're not. You're not getting the same kind of attention. And it doesn't mean your books any less. You know any less well-written or it's any. You know it's just as good as this other person's or whatever.
Lisa Schmid:But because they haven't shown the same attention for like promotions and they're not doing you know Times Square billboards or you know running Amazon ads or Goodreads giveaways, I mean whatever it is they're doing for some other book that's garnering all these sales, that's awesome. But if they're not doing anything for you and you don't get the sales and it tanks your book, then it tanks your ability to get a new book deal or a good book deal. And so that's the thing I think is so frustrating is that not only are they tanking that book by not showing it the care and consideration it was promised at time of signing, they are also taking, you know, tanking your ability to get a new contract or a decent contract.
Beth McMullen:Oh, it's absolutely true.
Beth McMullen:I mean, I would, in many circumstances I would take a smaller advance that I know that I can earn out, as opposed to a larger one that I'm never going to earn out, because then I'm now wearing that you know that baggage, or carrying that baggage of not having earned out my book. You know that baggage, or carrying that baggage of not having earned out my book, and that is a hard thing. If you're going for another book to another publisher, you're going to have to explain that, because now, why would they take a chance on you? You didn't succeed when they can take a chance on somebody who's new and fresh Right. So I think there's definitely, you definitely have to be planning in advance how you want to handle that situation, provided that your book doesn't go the distance and now, forevermore.
Beth McMullen:That is attached to you, that's your reputation, it now belongs to you. How are you going to explain you? How are you going to explain it? How are you going to navigate around it? What does it do? How do you dig yourself out of the hole? You end up in author jail and how do you get out of it Right?
Lisa Schmid:And that's another thing where you know those are conversations that you have to have with your agent and they're probably not really fun because the agent's probably looking at the numbers going how am I going to sell? You know, how am I? Even you know your next book is great, but how am I going to sell it when you know I'm looking at your numbers and they're not awesome? And so it just. It's just this quagmire and I feel like this is such a Debbie Downer episode, but this, I think this is just one of those. Let's be real about publishing.
Beth McMullen:And that's what I'm saying. I'm saying understand the reality, understand the limitations of this book contract, of this process that you're going to step into. It is a limited process, so understand the reality of that and then you will be less brokenhearted when things happen to you and you will be more able to adjust and do the things that you need to do to make yourself a success. I honestly do not believe in living in this fantasy world of like books or something different than any other product that a company is trying to sell right Because for the publisher they is trying to sell right Because for the publisher they are trying to sell a product. So you have to think about it as a product on a certain level. Of course, writing is not like making shoes, but at the end of the day the selling part is the same. So you have to just live in the. You have to live in the real world, because otherwise you're just going to get your heart broken.
Lisa Schmid:Yeah, and I don't want that for people. No, and I think again, that's why we're having this, because we debated. We're like oh my gosh, this is such a real topic.
Beth McMullen:You are totally right when you said so many people are showing up with this same thing, like asking the same question about why do I feel this way, why does publishing make me feel this way? And we have definitely seen a big uptick and people feeling like they got run over by a bus.
Lisa Schmid:I get it, you know it's, it's hard. When my debut book came out, I remember I was just like, oh, awesome, you know. And then, as you know, as I've gone through publishing, as I've gone through the world, like I am like sitting in a rocking chair smoking a cigarette, like staring around, like yeah, this is how it is, honey you know what, and we should.
Lisa Schmid:There is a lot of joy in publishing and a lot. We're just giving you a really dark side of it right now, because that's not Well, no, it's not a dark side.
Beth McMullen:It is a real angle on it. It is not everybody's experience, but it is the vast majority of people who are publishing in today's day and age. Right, but I also I think what we need to remember is that writing and publishing are two different things. I always go back to the writing because in my DNA I am absolutely a writer and will be until the day I drop dead. That's just my reality. I can't not do it, but I have learned over a lot of trial and error that I can separate the two. So I can work on something because I love it and it's fun and it's a story I want to tell and I'm thinking about it all the time and I'm showing up at the page to write the book.
Beth McMullen:I'm not thinking about selling it. I'm not thinking about the publishing process. I'm not thinking about the future of that book. I'm thinking about it right in the moment. Book. I'm thinking about it right in the moment and by doing that I am so happy to keep writing. Whether or not I publish that book is for later. I don't need to think about that until later.
Lisa Schmid:And if you've had a bad experience or you've just gone through a trying you know publication experience, then it's okay to take a break and regroup. And sometimes it's just you don't even need to be writing because if you've gone through a bad experience and the editorial was a mess or whatever, you do get that burnout feeling where you're just like I can't even like pen to paper or whatever. I can't, I don't even know how to write anymore. My brain's too frazzled and I hate everyone and I'm just done. And, like I said, like if you've ever been really hung over and you're like I'm never drinking again and then suddenly you find Friday rolls around and you're like God, that glass of Chardonnay sounds really good, that's where you'll end. You'll eventually get to that place again, trust me.
Beth McMullen:That is great. That is the perfect way to describe it. We have also been talking about and this is kind of related we are going to be starting a private Facebook group associated with writers with wrinkles, and it will be a place to come and talk about writing and writing only. Lisa and I will establish some sort of office hours with that, so we'll be live on occasion in there for people to just come hang out. When that is ready to go, it's going to be in our podcast notes, so we will keep you posted on that and, of course, we'll send it out on our socials.
Beth McMullen:A note on our socials, we have left Twitter X, whatever it's called, so you can find us on Facebook. You can find us on threads, instagram and blue sky, and Lisa's really good at showing up in all of those places. So if you have something you want to discuss or thoughts or whatever, find us there. So, listeners, that is it for today's episode. We hope this will help you navigate the choppy waters of publishing, and we are back on November 25th with episode 39. And we will be talking to Vicki Weber, who is a literary agent at Creative Media Agency and a bestselling author. So if you want to join us. For that, please tune in, and until then, happy reading, writing and listening. Bye, lisa.
Lisa Schmid:Bye Beth, bye guys.
