Writers With Wrinkles
Authors Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid iron out the wrinkles in writing, publishing, and everything in between . . . One podcast at a time.
Writers With Wrinkles is the go-to podcast for aspiring authors, and those in the trenches, who want to successfully publish a novel...or ten! Join us each week as we dive deep into writing and the publishing industry, providing expert interviews, insightful discussions, and practical tips. With our engaging and informative format, you'll get the guidance you need to navigate the complex world of publishing. Start your journey today!
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Writers With Wrinkles
Cracking the Publishing Code: Expert Tips from Editor Ivan Taurisano
**Please Note: Guest Adria Gaetz episode will drop on February 3rd, not January 20th.**
In the premier episode of Season 4, Beth and Lisa chat with Ivan Taurisano, Associate Editor at Abrams, who specializes in children's literature and intellectual properties. Ivan shares insider tips on creating standout submissions, navigating the acquisition process, and the evolving trends in middle-grade publishing.
Guest Bio
Ivan Taurisano is an Associate Editor at Abrams, specializing in children's licenses and intellectual property. His work includes novelty books, board books, graphic novels, and select MG and YA titles. He has collaborated on several successful series and brands, such as How to Catch, Little Heroes, Big Hearts, Sesame Street, Disney, Tokidoki, and Pokémon. His guiding principle is that a child whose life is transformed by a book is one step closer to becoming an adult who will change the world.
Key Discussion Points
- Submission Essentials: Ivan emphasizes the importance of polished manuscripts, strategic research, and personalized query letters. Authors should highlight why their work fits the editor’s preferences and demonstrate professionalism to make a strong first impression.
- Acquisition Process: Ivan demystifies the journey of a manuscript from editorial meetings to marketing evaluations, highlighting what makes or breaks a deal.
- Middle-Grade Trends: The market is leaning toward shorter, action-packed, and visually engaging middle-grade books. Writers are encouraged to innovate and break traditional molds to captivate readers.
- Social Media & Track Records: While a social media platform isn’t a dealbreaker, it’s a bonus for YA and middle-grade authors. Past sales numbers of debut books are discussed critically during acquisitions, with publishers investigating contributing factors to performance.
- Opportunities in Chapter Books: There’s room for new voices in character-driven chapter books, with series potential being a key factor for success.
Conclusion
This episode provides actionable advice for aspiring authors to refine their submissions and navigate publishing with confidence. Ivan’s insights, grounded in industry expertise, offer a roadmap for writers seeking to make an impact in children’s literature.
Links Mentioned
- Join the The Waiting Room Facebook Group for personalized writing tips and peer support.
- Visit Writers With Wrinkles for additional podcast notes and resources.
Siblings, Katie Wright and Jacob Frederick, pick out books solely by the information...
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Ivan Taurisano Transcript
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Beth McMullen: Hi, friends, I'm Beth Mcmullen.
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Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmidt.
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Beth McMullen: today we're excited to welcome Ivan Tarasano to the show. Ivan is an associate editor at Abrams, specializing in children's licenses and intellectual property. His work includes novelty, books, board books, graphic novels, and select middle grade and young adult titles he has collaborated on several successful series, and brands such as How to catch Little Heroes, Big Hearts, Sesame Street and Disney. He's guiding
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Beth McMullen: his guiding principle is that a child whose life is transformed by a book is one step closer to becoming an adult who will change the world. I have to say, when I read that I got a little emotional. I was like, that's so nice.
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Ivan Taurisano: Thank you.
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Ivan Taurisano: It's very true.
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Lisa Schmid: That's true. Because I when I emailed him back. And 1st of all, I have to say you are so good about emailing back in a timely manner. I was already like I love him so much like, but I, when I read.
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Ivan Taurisano: The bar is really low.
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Ivan Taurisano: told that editors are very bad, like they take their time. I'm like, no, I don't think we should like. It doesn't take that long to reply. You know.
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Lisa Schmid: Oh, it's so nice! But I I emailed you back and said the exact same thing as Beth. The last line of your profile made my heart just melt a little bit, and then just sometimes you're just like it. Just it's a reminder of why we're why, we write I don't know. Beth has a cold heart, maybe.
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Beth McMullen: I do. No, I don't write kid lit anymore. I wrote, I published 7 kid lit books. And then I was like, Okay, I think that's enough.
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Ivan Taurisano: Walks.
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Beth McMullen: Yeah, it felt like it felt like enough, and it felt like time for me to move on to something different.
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Lisa Schmid: All right. So I'm just going to jump into the very 1st question. What best can an author do to make their submission stand.
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Ivan Taurisano: That is a great question.
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Ivan Taurisano: I will take this in 2 parts. So
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Ivan Taurisano: I, as an editor, want to see that you've done the work like, in my opinion, no author should ever think that their book has to be perfect when it reaches an editor.
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Ivan Taurisano: But I need to know that you've done everything you possibly can to make the book as polished as possible, and that I will help you close the gap between what you've done and what the original vision was, and we're going to make it perfect for the market.
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Ivan Taurisano: And how do you see that you see that in a query letter, when you understand that the author has done the research understands the space that they want their book to take in the market.
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Ivan Taurisano: I see that the manuscript has been through a series of revision, and an editor can tell if that's the 1st draft or not.
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Ivan Taurisano: And I think it's also important for that author to.
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Ivan Taurisano: If, for example, I am an editor who accepts queries from editors, from authors that don't have an agent right? In that case, I want to understand. Why are you coming directly to me? Is it just because you think that the agent is not a gatekeeper in this relationship, or is it because there is something specific about me that you think makes me a good fit for your book.
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Ivan Taurisano: there are, you know, we we were just talking about waiting and waiting and waiting. There are so many queries that I think just go out into the world because someone is desperately looking for an agent or an editor, and I understand that feeling because I've also been on that
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Ivan Taurisano: side. But at the same time, now that I'm working in the industry, also, understand.
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Ivan Taurisano: You need to be very specific. You need to go after that agent. That editor that you know.
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Ivan Taurisano: is more likely to fall in love with your book
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Ivan Taurisano: and to do something with it that is great.
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Ivan Taurisano: You don't want an agent or an editor just to have an agent or an editor, because that can ruin your career like the wrong agent. The wrong editor can ruin your book.
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Ivan Taurisano: So if you want to stand out, make sure that your query shows me that you've done the work shows me that you're querying me because you think I'm a great fit for your book.
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Ivan Taurisano: and then let me and Faith decide, or whoever is reading that query. But I think it's important to show that the work has been done.
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Beth McMullen: We've been hearing that.
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Beth McMullen: you know variations of that from a lot of the agents that we've talked to over the past year where they are requesting work that has been edited. Maybe you've hired somebody professionally, or you work with a book, coach or something, so that at least a couple of rounds have gone. The book has gone through at least a couple of rounds before it shows up in their inbox. Because I think, going back to that you know everybody's waiting. The reason everybody's waiting is that
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Beth McMullen: these agents and editors have so much material that they need to dig through. So if you're going to take their time definitely present them something that you have worked hard on. So I mean, it's interesting. We're hearing that a lot more, I think, than we used to, where people thought they could submit something. And they're like, Oh, yeah, the agent never will help me make it better.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yes, and like, I think it's also about
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Ivan Taurisano: I don't know to explain it. It's like you want to make sure that you are not also sounding like, I just want to get this book published, no matter what right? Because yes, that is the feeling.
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Ivan Taurisano: But if you believe in that book. You want the best for it, you know, and
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Ivan Taurisano: I take so much time, like all other writers, to work on my craft.
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Ivan Taurisano: That I want my book to be in the hands of someone who's gonna love it.
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Ivan Taurisano: and like going back to what you were saying, which is very right. As a neighbor. I have so much work to do. Don't give me a reason to say no, just because I can see that you've not done the work actually, what you should do is give me any reason to say yes.
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Beth McMullen: Yeah, everybody should write that down in like Sharpie on the wall. Get to? Yes, help yourself. Get to. Yes, right? Because that's still within your power. I know writers often feel very powerless in this process. That is all within your power to polish that story to not.
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Beth McMullen: I mean. And okay, we know a lot of writers who feel different levels of desperation in this industry. But you don't want to let that drive the whole process, because then you're maybe submitting something that's not ready to go. So that is super wise advice. That's that's pretty easy to heed, and it is something that writers can take control of
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Beth McMullen: themselves.
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Beth McMullen: I love that answer like, now I'm getting it. When I hear an answer like that it makes me kind of like I feel really energized by it. Because I'm like, yes, that's it. That's what we need to know.
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Beth McMullen: So the acquisition process is a huge mystery, even for those who have gone through it multiple times. It's still very mysterious. What goes on behind the scenes? What are the the steps in the process, and what have you seen make or break a deal.
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Ivan Taurisano: Good question. So what I would say is that
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Ivan Taurisano: every house, every publisher, does that differently. So there are some differences, especially in terms of timeline in terms of like when the submission, like goes to a 1st meeting, is there more than one meeting? But I would say in general, when an editor decides that they're interested in a book.
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Ivan Taurisano: they will bring it to a 1st editorial meeting, which is just with the editors, the group of editors, and there is a conversation about it. Usually the book is sent to them like the week before the meeting is scheduled. Everyone reads all the submissions, and then there is a conversation the conversation is with all the editors, including, like the editorial directors, and like the publisher, and everyone talks about. You know what they think about that you know. What are the strengths, what are the weaknesses of the project? And then, if
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Ivan Taurisano: there is enough, you know excitement about the project, and the publisher agrees. The book will go to.
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Ivan Taurisano: you know, like what we may call like a board meeting, or, like you put it in front, essentially of the people that are not just editors, but also like sales marketing. And everyone gets to weigh in right. And so we decide, is this like an actual project that we should pursue? Are we the right fit for it? And that's where you also make decisions about like how much money you're gonna spend, you know, what are the costs and profits here?
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Ivan Taurisano: and then you decide if you want to make an offer and like, if you make an offer. That's when you start talking to an agent, or if there is no agent to start talking to the other about, like.
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Ivan Taurisano: you know, an agreement, and like the rights that will be shared with them, like the royalties that they will get or not.
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Ivan Taurisano: So that's really like an overview of the process. In my opinion, one makes or breaks like a book. A lot of times is.
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Ivan Taurisano: you get very, very excited as an editor, you bring it, and you can show all of your excitement. But if, like
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Ivan Taurisano: a lot of the other editors point out like things that you haven't seen, maybe, or if maybe, like, there is a very similar project on the list already, or you know, if
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Ivan Taurisano: the people just above you don't share your excitement for it, you just have to let it go, you know. So it's not really about
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Ivan Taurisano: the strength of the Pro. The project anymore at that point, because, like, you know the project is like, especially if it goes through to the 1st meeting.
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Ivan Taurisano: Most editors, especially. What I do is I will share it with a couple of other editors before the big editors meeting, so that I have, like an ally or 2 in the in the room, if necessary.
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Ivan Taurisano: when it goes to the meeting, where there is also marketing and sales, is very unpredictable to know what can happen right, because marketing and sales don't think the same way as editors do right? Like a passion project is not really a thing at that point anymore. You're talking about business, you're talking about like, how do we market this book. Is there a way to market it?
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Ivan Taurisano: How do we sell this book? Where do we sell it? How quickly can we sell it? So that's pretty much what happens. But I think that especially if your book makes it through
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Ivan Taurisano: the 1st editorial meeting you should be very proud, because it's not easy like. We look at a hundred submission, and then we decide which one or 2 are going to go to that meeting.
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Ivan Taurisano: If any.
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Lisa Schmid: That sounds scary.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yeah.
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Lisa Schmid: And it's so often you hear how people you know will say at my book, Guide in Acquisitions, my book Guide, and and it's such, you know, just to hear, like the levels that you have to go to. It's such an achievement to actually get a book deal. It's amazing.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yeah, yeah, I, our is really high, harder.
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Ivan Taurisano: It's very hard. It's very, very hard. And
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Ivan Taurisano: you know, but I also say something that it's like should be very encouraging, as especially like
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Ivan Taurisano: before I, when I, when I was not working on a lot of license and IP projects like I worked with a lot of authors that were in my slash bio, like people that didn't have an agent.
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Ivan Taurisano: Just send me the book. I happen to read it, and I was like, this is good enough for me to bring it to someone.
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Ivan Taurisano: and then everyone gets excited.
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Ivan Taurisano: So it doesn't matter who you are like, who's representing you, who's not representing you like.
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Ivan Taurisano: It's very such a subjective industry that you really never know what's going to happen with your book.
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Lisa Schmid: It's about.
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Beth McMullen: Oh, go ahead!
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Beth McMullen: I have a question. It's pretty unusual for an editor at a big house to take
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Beth McMullen: unagented manuscripts. What made you decide that you were going to be open to that.
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Ivan Taurisano: I was always going to be open to submissions, even when I was like literally, like just an assistant editor, to like unsolicit submissions, because I think that.
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Ivan Taurisano: And I say these very respectfully, because I understand that there are steps that writers need to take. You know you have to go through an agent. But I've also realized that
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Ivan Taurisano: agents sometimes have to have a business mind right? And they have to think about books and submissions a certain way.
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Ivan Taurisano: and
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Ivan Taurisano: I think there are a lot of really great writers that just haven't found the right agent, and I don't think that should prevent them from having an opportunity. And that's why, like, I work with people that got an agent after I made the offer right. They use that offer to get an agent which just proves that always business behind. Right again, with respect to agents, because they need to also like earn their living. And that's a very tough to be an agent in this industry. I think it's tougher than being an editor, but
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Ivan Taurisano: you know
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Ivan Taurisano: it's I. Look at the book, and I'm like, do I love it enough? And then I think about, is this going to be a good book? Can I? Can I sell it? Can I publish it? The agent thinks a little bit the opposite way. They're like.
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Ivan Taurisano: what what can I do with this right? If there is already an offer made from an editor. It's like, Oh, I already know where to put this. So it's easier.
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Lisa Schmid: Well, and that can leads to the next question, because.
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Lisa Schmid: you know, so many times people are talking about
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Lisa Schmid: social media platforms. Is that important to you, does it? You know, because you're on social media. That's how I found you. I used to follow you on Twitter before I left, and I fell in love with you on Twitter, because you were so open and transparent with, you know, comments that you made. And I just thought, this is the guy that we want on the show.
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Lisa Schmid: So how important is it to you for an author to have a platform in social media, and do you scrutinize it? Do you check out the content? See, you know what type of person they are? If it's somebody that you want to work with.
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Ivan Taurisano: I wouldn't say that it's scrutinized. Also, I think it really depends on what age group you're writing, for, because, for example, I know that, especially in the Ya. Space. You're always looking for that platform, because, you know, we live in the book. Talk age like if you're like Big Tiktok platform a big Instagram platform. You can spread the world the word about your book right? If you have a big newsletter, for example. That helps. But I think that that's pretty much like
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Ivan Taurisano: middle grade ya space. But when it comes down to like a board book or a picture book, I think that having a social media platform and a big like audience. It's always a plus, but I am, and I honestly have never seen like.
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Ivan Taurisano: or I haven't been in a meeting where neither said, we're not gonna acquire this picture book because the author doesn't have a platform right.
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Lisa Schmid: Right.
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Ivan Taurisano: I haven't even heard that about ya, but I heard, you know, of course, people say from like a comment, maybe that it's like.
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Ivan Taurisano: oh, her platform or the platform could be a little bit bigger. But you know, we're gonna find a way to make it. Work is like
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Ivan Taurisano: it's about the book at the end of the day, right? Like the platform, is always a plus. But it's also
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Ivan Taurisano: not a deal breaker unless we're talking about something that
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Ivan Taurisano: I don't know, really would like just like leave or die based on like that social media promotion which
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Ivan Taurisano: sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. You know there were a lot of examples like that, for example, during the pandemic, like books that just needed to have that social media people that just need to have that social media platform or your book would just never be seen, because no one was going to bookstores.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's you always wonder like what you know, what makes or breaks a book, you know, as far as being out in the world and sales, and it's like, you know, I know that a lot of authors, myself included out there, just spinning, you know, trying to get as many eyes on my book as possible. And that doesn't always translate in sales, because, you know, even as hard as you try. So I've always wondered like, what's the perspective? From the publisher and the editor.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yeah.
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Beth McMullen: We've been talking a lot on the show about.
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Beth McMullen: Well, Lisa and I have been talking about it, anyway, about how much
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Beth McMullen: an author's previous sales. Numbers factor into your decision, making good and bad as in. Say, you have a debut, and it's a flop, right? No one buys it. That sort of nightmare scenario of all debut authors. And then you're going to sell your second.
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Beth McMullen: How is it is that that
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Beth McMullen: sort of negative perception of the author's sales going to impact, say, your ability to offer them another contract for another book. So when you go into that meeting, you say I love this book, but their 1st one didn't do so well. So how does how much of an impact does it have.
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Ivan Taurisano: Well, that's exactly the way it happens. By the way, you know, like you go in. And you say this is a great book, but this is the track record behind it, right? And that is a conversation that is important to have, because then a good editor, and like a good internal meeting is one where you discuss. Why did that happen? Right? Is there a reason why the book didn't work? Because if we are talking about the fact that the book didn't work because it was something like.
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Ivan Taurisano: not really great about the writing. Or like, you know, it's like we're talking about craft issues.
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Ivan Taurisano: Then I want to know. Oh.
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Ivan Taurisano: if the second book is so good, what happened? Was the author just improving? That's great right. But if the issue is, you know, the book just didn't work because
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Ivan Taurisano: the author didn't help with promotion, even though they said they would, you know, or like no one is connecting with the with this like
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Ivan Taurisano: voice. That's a different conversation. There is also to something to say about
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Ivan Taurisano: you know. Again, like a good editor, would also ask if this was if the 1st book was published somewhere else was enough done for that book at the other house, right? Because sometimes, like a book doesn't get marketing, and that's the only reason why people don't find it right, and it's got nothing to do with the author or the work that they've done.
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Ivan Taurisano: I would say that compared to what I like, it's a little bit different than what I said about social media track record does have like a bigger impact than social media presence.
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Lisa Schmid: So
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Lisa Schmid: this is a follow up to that. If how are you able to tell, like what the the previous publisher did to market the book.
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Lisa Schmid: cause it's true, you know some publishers will pick titles and say, this is where we're throwing all our marketing behind in this, you know, in this season or this release, and then some of you know some other titles kind of get left in the dust, and you're out there kind of fending for yourself. Do you take that into consideration, knowing that that really does take place, and that that book may have just been kind of brushed under the rug.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yeah, you can absolutely like we would take. I would take that into consideration. And, like most of the time, you ask a question to the agent if they were the agent of the the author at the time the book was published, you say, do you know what happened with this book right? Because I like this work. But I'm also wondering, like
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Ivan Taurisano: about this track record. And the agent often like he's always willing to clarify the situation right. If it's, of course, an author that like didn't have an agent, and you talk directly to them. They're going to be able, maybe, to explain a little bit more. But you always ask questions, you know, like, that's the important thing, because you want to make sure that there is open communication. Especially because no one wants to say to anyone like, Hey, I'm not making an offer on this book because your 1st book didn't work
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Ivan Taurisano: so I wanna make sure that before I decide that that's the only reason to do it, like I've checked everything.
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Lisa Schmid: And that's good to know. I know that there's a lot of people that we've had just recently, just like 3 people in in the last couple of weeks that have come forward to us, saying, My, my next book got
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Lisa Schmid: my option didn't get picked up because my 2 month sales weren't good enough. But then again, they're just like they didn't. They didn't do the same things they did for other books. And so that's frustrating, I think for people to, you know, just to to get to that point of just 2 months only, I mean, that seems like a really small window to to give authors. Is that pretty normal.
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Ivan Taurisano: I?
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Ivan Taurisano: Well, you know, I don't work with a lot of like options, because, like, it's just a little bit of different work. But I think that.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yes, I think like usually like, it's like a 2, 3 month timeframe to see like what is happening with this book, but it also depends on, like the book. The author like what the Expectation was for the 1st book, because, obviously, like, there are books that you just know they're going to be like your big book of the season, right? And then there are other books that you're like.
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Ivan Taurisano: I'm really hopeful for this book. We'll see what's gonna happen like, I really believe in it right? But like.
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Ivan Taurisano: it's like, it's like readers like you have your favorite book of the year that, you know, like is going to be like the best thing that you will read. But you also have other books that you're very excited to see. Right? So yes, I think like the it's it's it can be a little bit brutal to say, like 2 months. But like, Yeah.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's harsh. It's harsh.
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Beth McMullen: I think it's it's definitely it's similar now to what happens in movies and television where it used to be. You had a longer window with a book. But now it's that same, you know, movies. It's like, make or break that 1st weekend
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Beth McMullen: TV shows 2 or 3 episodes. If it's not taking off. They're kind of done on on doing more of it. So it's kind of aligned and kind of that entertainment model where everything is very. It's very important to have that initial like
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Beth McMullen: Spark, where people are coming picking up the book, do it? Yeah. So I mean, it makes sense. It's hard. I think it's hard, because people think of books as something slightly different. But again, like you said, it is a business so.
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Ivan Taurisano: It is a business.
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Lisa Schmid: So speaking of the business, what is at the top of your manuscript wish list right now.
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Ivan Taurisano: You know, that is a very interesting question that, like I never know how to answer when the agents asked me to me, because, like I as you as you read in my bio, like I work on so many different things that I
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Ivan Taurisano: I I always I've almost like I don't have any expectations for what's coming, because, like, I want to be surprised.
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Ivan Taurisano: But of course I have my favorite things right that I'm looking for. I love seasonal books, you know I love everything that has to do with like Christmas, Halloween. I love things that rhyme because I think that books should be fun, you know, before everything else.
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Ivan Taurisano: But I don't have like the one dream project that I'm looking for, you know, because I think I'm also lucky enough that to get a really a lot of really cool stuff.
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Ivan Taurisano: And I think a lot of agents like
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Ivan Taurisano: like they learned. You know what my taste is. So they send me things that most of the time I'm gonna be very excited about. And it's just that right now. I'm in that space where, like, I have like more license. M projects so like my
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Ivan Taurisano: acquisition is a little bit more limited than it used to be.
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Ivan Taurisano: But yes, I don't have like the one thing that I'm looking for, but I would say that I think almost every editor right now, in my opinion is waiting for the next big middle grade book.
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Lisa Schmid: Interesting.
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Beth McMullen: Do you? If you had to say what percentage of your current projects are? IP license versus just standalone.
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Ivan Taurisano: 95, 95% is like.
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Beth McMullen: Okay, so.
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Ivan Taurisano: Because the thing is that also, you know, speaking yes, and like speaking about timelines, you know, like, like timelines of like license project, are so much more like
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Ivan Taurisano: quicker than.
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Lisa Schmid: All right.
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Ivan Taurisano: A standard project, and that's why, like they take a lot more time.
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Beth McMullen: Yeah.
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Lisa Schmid: So I have a question. And this came in through the waiting room. Laura wanted to know, and I want to know, too, is, what is your take on middle grade these days? Lay it, lay it on me, give me the cold, hard facts.
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Ivan Taurisano: I think.
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Ivan Taurisano: as an editor and as a writer, and also as a reader, I think Middle Gray Category is one of the most important categories that we have is where the love of is where lifetime readers are made or not like. That's the way I see it.
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Ivan Taurisano: I decided when I was younger, that I wanted to be a writer, and I didn't have the word for it, and an editor for children of children's books because of middle grade.
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Ivan Taurisano: I. My favorite book is James and The Giant Peach, by Roald Dahl, which probably today would be considered like very young middle Grade. But I think, like
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Ivan Taurisano: those are the most important books of our life. You know what is happening right now to me is just interesting, because the general consensus is that what's happening is just like middle grade. Readers are reading differently. Right?
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Ivan Taurisano: We're like middle grade readers are looking for books that are a little bit shorter than like the the books middle grade, the middle grade books are right now.
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Ivan Taurisano: Some are suggesting that they're looking for less words and more pictures like, for example, more graphic novel style.
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Ivan Taurisano: But the general idea is that we're looking for books that are shorter, more exciting, action-packed, you more very character driven or plot driven, you know, and very commercial.
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Ivan Taurisano: I think that
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Ivan Taurisano: what is happening right now is just the moment that publishing is a pendulum, things come and go like there is never a moment where, like something's gonna be completely over. I still remember I wasn't in publishing at the time. My people thought ya was over at some point, and I'm like, No, no
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Ivan Taurisano: But right now what I think as an editor, what is happening is that?
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Ivan Taurisano: A lot of publishing is like, let's see what readers are going to start looking for. And then we acquire those type of books. But maybe on the other side readers are like, I don't know what to read. Nothing is coming out that I want to read, so the category is dying right, and as a writer. I understand that's really scary and frustrating, because you're like I love Middle Grade. Most of my work is in that category. Should I submit this book? Should I wait? Should I not? And I would say.
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Ivan Taurisano: go for it. Put that book out there because there are some books in the middle grade category that we are seeing
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Ivan Taurisano: been very successful, like, for example, creatures by Catherine Randall, which is like a middle grade book that was published in September and was picked up here by Random House. I believe it was originally published in the Uk. That book sold more copies in the 1st week than most middle grade books sell in like the 1st year, or even more.
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Ivan Taurisano: So we are seeing things work.
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Ivan Taurisano: What? I think it's important what I would do as a writer or middle grade. If I was asked if if I had to really think about it.
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Ivan Taurisano: I would try not to imitate anything that's happening. I would try to like
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Ivan Taurisano: break the rules of middle grade, because clearly middle grade readers are saying no more of the same. Please like do something else. So if you're someone who's like, I can't stand the boundaries that have been put around me as a middle grade writer. This is the time to break those rules break out of those boundaries, do something else.
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Ivan Taurisano: And literally, I think everyone who was writing middle grade should start a query letter saying.
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Ivan Taurisano: I'm doing everything differently. You should read this just for that reason, right? Because that's what readers want.
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Lisa Schmid: It feels like. And I I maybe I'm wrong, but I just it feels like in the recent years, like things have been so heavy in middle grade.
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Lisa Schmid: And I just I feel like kids want like they. The world's such a crazy place right now. Just to escape. Like to escape in a good adventure and not have to. You know. Life comes at you hard enough in, you know, in school. I know when I was growing up. I was just I just wanted to escape. I didn't want to. I didn't want to relate to stuff as much.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.
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Lisa Schmid: Wanted to, you know, escape into that book and find other worlds and those other worlds gave me hope again. And I feel like, maybe it's time that there's a shift, because so many books I see come out is so heavy like with, you know, whatever whatever the angst is of the moment, that it's important that those books are there, but I also feel like we kind of like.
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Ivan Taurisano: Went off in another direction for a while, and I think kids were just like, you know what we just wanna. We just wanna have a good time. Kids just wanna have fun.
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Beth McMullen: And the books I love that you're saying shorter books because some of the Middle grade books that I've seen coming out in the last year or 2 are just so long, I mean.
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Ivan Taurisano: Very long.
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Beth McMullen: And you're a kid. You're looking at it, and you're like it's I don't. That's like too much. And then you.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yeah, it's intimidating. And even though you may be falling in love with reading like.
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Ivan Taurisano: especially if you don't have anyone who says like, come on, let's be together right like you're gonna like.
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Ivan Taurisano: just put that book on a shelf and never read it again. And that's how
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Ivan Taurisano: middle grade ends. But I don't think that's ever going to happen, especially because and always shout out to librarians and teachers like they're doing a lot of work to keep middle grade alive, like middle grade, is again one of the most important categories that we have. You know, it's the time when kids are reading on their own more than they were with like even chapter books
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Ivan Taurisano: and a good middle grade book, just like my guiding principle, can really like transform a child.
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Lisa Schmid: I agree.
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Beth McMullen: Wow!
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Lisa Schmid: Like. I look at the books when I was growing up, the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, all the chronicles of Narnia that saved me, you know I moved a lot.
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Ivan Taurisano: Book.
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Lisa Schmid: And I just you know, I I still read those books every year. Just it just takes me to such a happy place, and it just
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Lisa Schmid: when I was
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Lisa Schmid: when I was younger. It just it gave me a different perspective. I'm like there is something different out there. It may not be a magical land, I find through a wardrobe, though fingers crossed, I still.
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Ivan Taurisano: Fingers crossed. No, I agree. I agree. And I also think about the fact that maybe, unlike even my generation, you know, I'm 31. So I was not exposed to all of the bad
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Ivan Taurisano: things in the world like kids are today, you know, like kids have screens in front of them at a very young age like middle grade. Readers know pretty much everything that's going on in the world right now, right? And and you're giving them. I say this super respectfully, for whoever is writing and publishing and working on these books. But you're giving them books that reflect what is happening in the world.
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Ivan Taurisano: And I don't know that everyone wants that right now. Right? I understand. Like.
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Ivan Taurisano: there is like, definitely like a big space for that. And like a huge important space for that. But I think
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Ivan Taurisano: not. Everyone is looking for that right now, you know, like the world right now, is like difficult for kids. And
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Ivan Taurisano: we are not allowing them to be kids. In my opinion, the way they should be allowed to be kids. And like, that's where books come in right.
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Ivan Taurisano: because especially like when I think about the Middle Grade book is one of the 1st times that you read on your by yourself, and when you read by yourself. You are alone with your own thoughts, the thoughts that are inspired by the reading, by the book. Right? And you're having a conversation with yourself which you can't have when someone is reading a picture book to you.
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Lisa Schmid: Right.
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Ivan Taurisano: And so you become who you will be when you read a middle grade book right? And
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Ivan Taurisano: then the upgrade book shouldn't be about only about like.
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Ivan Taurisano: Yes, I'm sorry that you were born in this very sad place, you know, but that's just how life is, you know.
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Lisa Schmid: Right.
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Ivan Taurisano: It could also be.
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Ivan Taurisano: Well, yes, open that wardrobe. See what's behind it, right?
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Ivan Taurisano: Right? You never know.
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Lisa Schmid: Well, it's it's when I 1st started writing this new book.
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Lisa Schmid: that one of the things my my last book, you know, had a character that had a lot of anxiety.
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Lisa Schmid: and you know, and then the book before that was a kid that moved a lot, and he was, you know, just wanted to settle down and find a home. And this book I was just like, I don't want him to have like a life altering or shattering problem. I just want him to go someplace and have an adventure.
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Lisa Schmid: And you know, I kept trying as I was going through it. I'm like, do I need to give him like anxiety, or you know, something that he's like having to battle like? What's he learning at the end of the story? And it was really a conscious effort to like, not like, I'm like, I am not giving him anything.
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Lisa Schmid: This dude is just going on an adventure like I am. He is got no problems. He's just having a good time, and he is solving something, and I.
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Beth McMullen: I mean, being a teenager is its own problem.
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Beth McMullen: Yeah, you have enough problems.
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Ivan Taurisano: You haven't.
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Beth McMullen: 13 or whatever. Yeah.
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Ivan Taurisano: Tough. It's tough. I agree.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. So it just, I think, just I remember, like the books like James and the Giant Roald Dahl.
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Ivan Taurisano: Oh, yeah.
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Lisa Schmid: My absolute favorites.
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Ivan Taurisano: Absolutely.
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Lisa Schmid: Oh, my God, I love it! I just love his writing so much, and I just everything was like, you know, James and the giant peach. I mean. What an adventure! Sure, he's escaping his, you know. Evil ants, but he's on a peach with a bunch of insects, I mean, like, how cool is that.
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Lisa Schmid: you know.
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Ivan Taurisano: I agree on his way to New York. It's like.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, I mean.
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Ivan Taurisano: For.
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Lisa Schmid: That is the ultimate. And that's how you ended up in New York.
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Ivan Taurisano: Literally. That's what I did and like. If you remember, at the end of the book
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Ivan Taurisano: he writes a book for children, and you're told that that's the actual book that you were reading, and that's kind of what I did right like. That's that's what I'm saying with like, sometimes you don't realize until later in your life, when you grow up like, what impact that specifically great book had on your life, because I didn't realize until later that I kind of did what James did. I wasn't escaping evil parents or like ants, but like I did come to New York City to like write books for children.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, see that.
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Beth McMullen: I was gonna make that.
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Lisa Schmid: Cry, see you.
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Beth McMullen: Can you.
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Lisa Schmid: I'll cheerio.
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Beth McMullen: Good story. That is a good good story. I love it.
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Beth McMullen: and I like what you're I like what you're saying. I think it. It will resonate with a lot of listeners who write in the middle grade space that
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Beth McMullen: it can be fun. It can be lighthearted. It can be funny. I think we've lost a lot of humor in middle grade, which is a bummer, because that's my favorite thing. I still seek that out as an adult reader, and I think by
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Beth McMullen: reorienting ourselves toward those things we might be able to start lifting those, you know, lifting those readers, lifting those sales, bringing more authors into the fold so very astute and hopefully. Everybody will pay attention to that, and write accordingly. Stop at 35,000 words or 40,000 words. Do not write 75,000.
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Ivan Taurisano: You don't need to go down.
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Beth McMullen: All right, Lisa. Did you want to do your little speed round?
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Beth McMullen: Those kind of have been the speed round, so we'll do that part.
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Lisa Schmid: I do have one more question that somebody asked. And this is in regards to chapter books and early readers. So often people are wondering like they hear it's. And I think it's true that a lot of those are done in house is that correct? And that you know.
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Ivan Taurisano: Pounds.
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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. And some people are somebody in the the waiting room is wanting to know if is it worth it? Like diving into chapter books, and is there a market for that like right now? Or is it still? Is it still kind of chapter books where that kind of soft market for a while. And what are your thoughts on that.
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Ivan Taurisano: So what I would say is the 1st to answer. The 1st question is, no, I don't believe that a lot like most chapter books are done in house unless we're talking about, like, for example, a chapter that maybe you're writing as a movie tie-in, you know, like a like a cartoon animation thing, tie-in, but no like I can think about. For example, like the Chapter book series, Maria Khan, which we publish or like the Chapter book series, you know.
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Ivan Taurisano: Seashell Key, or like the questionnaires, you know, like those are books that are written by people. And like, I have actually worked with a few authors that like
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Ivan Taurisano: were trying to like work in chapter books, and like they had the same questions. But like.
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Ivan Taurisano: yes, if you like chapter books definitely go into that space. I think it's an amazing space. It's a space where actually, a lot of new, great readers are kind of like in the limbo, because they're like, I haven't found anything yet to take me to the next stage, right? So I am hearing this. Maybe older chapter book like an early reader. Right?
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Ivan Taurisano: but I think there's a lot to do here. There are, like early reader, graphic novels. But like specifically, if we're talking about chapter books. There are a lot of like really great character driven adventures that I love, so I don't think anyone should think that they should stay away from that space if they think that they have something to contribute.
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Lisa Schmid: Now is the rule of thumb still 4. Is it that if you, if you do get picked up, there's going to be a a request for 4 books.
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Ivan Taurisano: No.
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Ivan Taurisano: but what I will say is that it is true that it takes more than definitely more than one or 2 books to establish a series there
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Ivan Taurisano: because you would need like like chapter book series like
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Ivan Taurisano: are always meant to be series, you know, like a standalone chapter book, is not really like a thing, in my opinion. Right? So you you're always going to look for at least more than one book.
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Ivan Taurisano: So the conversation with the author is always going to be like, what do you have other than this? Right like? Is there something else? So most of the time? Yes, I think a chapter book
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Ivan Taurisano: offer, in my opinion, is always going to include more than one book.
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Lisa Schmid: Okay.
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Lisa Schmid: very cool. And I think that was it from the waiting room? Because you answered a couple of the other questions just during our our regular conversation.
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Ivan Taurisano: Oh, nice!
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Beth McMullen: This was so great, this was so great, this is.
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Ivan Taurisano: The perfect.
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Beth McMullen: Way to launch our season. 4. Because so informative, informative, actionable stuff that people can do so. Thank you so much for coming and sharing all of this with us today, we're really grateful.
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Ivan Taurisano: Thank you for inviting me. This was so great.
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Beth McMullen: And listeners. Remember, you can find out more about Ivan by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles.net.
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Beth McMullen: and Lisa and I are back on January 20th with Agent Adria Goetz, and we'd love for you to join us for that. So until then, happy reading, writing, and listening.
