Resilience, Rejections, and Rediscovering Joy in Writing

In this Ask Beth & Lisa episode, the hosts tackle listener questions about navigating the challenges of writing and publishing, including understanding agent rejections and crafting strong hooks. They also discuss personal writing goals and the importance of building supportive writer communities.

Key Discussion Points

1. New Year's Writing Resolutions:
   • Beth aims to quit Amazon shopping and regain control over external influences.
   • Lisa focuses on rediscovering joy in writing after a challenging year in publishing.
2. Understanding Agent Rejections:
   • "No editorial vision" often means agents can't see how a manuscript aligns with their list or market goals.
   • A polished manuscript and a clear understanding of its market positioning are critical for agent interest.
3. Crafting a Strong Commercial Hook:
   • A book’s hook must be compelling and marketable, summed up in a concise logline.
   • Before starting a manuscript, writers should identify the core premise and target audience.
4. Writer Community Support:
   • Beth and Lisa highlight the value of their private Facebook group, "The Waiting Room," as a resource for writers to ask questions, share experiences, and find encouragement.
5. Podcast Updates:
   • Plans to incorporate video clips from recordings into social media to enhance listener engagement.
   • Upcoming episodes with industry guests, including agents and editors.

Conclusion

Beth and Lisa encourage writers to embrace community support, focus on market readiness, and maintain resilience in the face of rejection. They invite listeners to submit questions, join the Facebook group, and support the podcast by subscribing and sharing.

Mentioned Links

• The Waiting Room (Facebook Group): A private space for writers at all levels to connect and seek guidance.
• Website: WritersWithWrinkles.net

Join the next episode featuring Agent Adria Goetz on February 3rd!

By Its Cover
Siblings, Katie Wright and Jacob Frederick, pick out books solely by the information...

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Chapters

• 13:35 [Ad] By Its Cover
• 14:15 (Cont.) Resilience, Rejections, and Rediscovering Joy in Writing

Transcript

Ask B&L S3 E2

128

00:08:57.890 --> 00:08:59.629

Beth McMullen: Hi, friends, I'm Beth Mcmullen.

129

00:08:59.930 --> 00:09:01.239

Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmidt.

130

00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:10.720

Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of writers with wrinkles. This is Season 4, episode 2. And today is an ask Beth and Lisa episode. Yay.

131

00:09:11.290 --> 00:09:13.330cat

Lisa Schmid: Okay. Happy happy New Year.

132

00:09:13.730 --> 00:09:19.240

Beth McMullen: Happy New Year. It is day 2 of January 2025, which

133

00:09:19.410 --> 00:09:23.920

Beth McMullen: fills me equal parts, shock and despair.

134

00:09:24.550 --> 00:09:27.510

Lisa Schmid: Oh, yeah. Why'd you go there?

135

00:09:28.050 --> 00:09:34.360

Beth McMullen: Okay, I'm gonna let's just not go there. Okay, let's talk about something else. Let's not talk about it being January 2025.

136

00:09:34.910 --> 00:09:38.180

Lisa Schmid: Let's go like let's pretend this is like a different year altogether.

137

00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:45.129

Beth McMullen: Okay, let's pretend it's I don't know. Some other year, not 2025. Alas!

138

00:09:45.380 --> 00:09:56.800

Lisa Schmid: My advice this year is to not watch the news, not listen to the news. Just turn on writers with wrinkles, and lose yourself in writing and and podcasts that's my.

139

00:09:56.800 --> 00:10:05.909

Beth McMullen: That is such good advice. I love that that is the best advice ever for the

140

00:10:05.910 --> 00:10:14.460

Beth McMullen: To Podcasts pretend. The world isn't happening because it's going to happen whether you like are aware of it or not. So give yourself a little break.

141

00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:20.770

Lisa Schmid: I've been immersing myself in podcasts one, podcast. I'm really loving right now is middle grade matters.

142

00:10:21.205 --> 00:10:48.869

Lisa Schmid: And I'm going to be a guest on it. So at some point this year. But they she has such great guests. And so that's been one. I've really been listening to a lot. So I've been listening to a lot of music and a lot of podcasts over the last couple of months. And I, there could be honestly, there could be aliens could be invading the planet right now, and I don't know anything, although I did get. Don't go down that drone rabbit hole where I could texting you like. I think.

143

00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:54.050

Beth McMullen: I was just about to say. As long as the topic was drones, you were there for it.

144

00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:55.999

Lisa Schmid: Totally there for it.

145

00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:04.619

Beth McMullen: I'm into music. I'm listening to tons of music like I'm going back to albums that I haven't listened to since. Like 1981.

146

00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:07.259

Lisa Schmid: Because that's where you want to be.

147

00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:09.979

Lisa Schmid: You want to be. In 1981.

148

00:11:09.980 --> 00:11:22.649

Beth McMullen: Yeah, no kidding, or like pretty much anywhere else. Anyway, let's talk about writing before everybody just clicks off and goes off to listen to another podcast or albums from 1981.

149

00:11:22.970 --> 00:11:23.629

Lisa Schmid: You know.

150

00:11:24.090 --> 00:11:31.350

Lisa Schmid: So let's writing goals like, what do you? What are your goals for, or what are your goals for the New Year like what's on Beth Mcmullen's plate.

151

00:11:31.350 --> 00:11:36.930

Beth McMullen: I have one New Year's resolution, and that is, I am no longer buying anything on Amazon.

152

00:11:37.300 --> 00:11:37.880

Beth McMullen: No, at all.

153

00:11:37.880 --> 00:11:46.359

Beth McMullen: I am going cold. Turkey off of Amazon. I have lots of reasons for that. I'm sure. There's some that you can guess, but I'm just

154

00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:57.029

Beth McMullen: done like, why am I continuing to feed the monster. So my little contribution is, I'm no longer feeding the monster, and we'll see. I think it's actually going to be kind of a hard habit to break

155

00:11:57.270 --> 00:12:10.950

Beth McMullen: because I might have to go either. 2 things are going to happen. I'm going to have to actually go somewhere and get the thing that I want or need, or I'm going to have to be like, do I really need it? Maybe not enough to go get it, so we'll see, I'll keep you posted.

156

00:12:11.470 --> 00:12:14.470

Lisa Schmid: Yeah, that's that's hard. And it is.

157

00:12:14.640 --> 00:12:18.109

Lisa Schmid: That's an addiction that I think we all have, because it's so easy.

158

00:12:18.110 --> 00:12:18.430

Beth McMullen: -

159

00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:32.319

Beth McMullen: of feeling manipulated by forces outside of myself. Like, I'm being manipulated by social media. I'm being manipulated by Amazon. I'm being, you know all of these things were.

160

00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:36.710

Beth McMullen: wait a minute. I don't really like that feeling. So yeah, gonna try and stop it.

161

00:12:37.300 --> 00:12:39.029

Lisa Schmid: That's a that's a good goal.

162

00:12:39.530 --> 00:12:41.469

Lisa Schmid: I like that. I applaud your goal.

163

00:12:41.680 --> 00:12:42.820

Beth McMullen: Thank you.

164

00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.529

Beth McMullen: What are your goals or a goal.

165

00:12:45.760 --> 00:12:49.910

Lisa Schmid: My goal is pretty simple. I'm my goal is to regain my dignity.

166

00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.240

Lisa Schmid: I am. This last year was rough. I was.

167

00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:56.610

Beth McMullen: You know what.

168

00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:58.540

Lisa Schmid: Was really was.

169

00:12:58.540 --> 00:13:04.170

Lisa Schmid: I was. I'm I'm publishing roadkill, that is, if

170

00:13:04.550 --> 00:13:13.969

Lisa Schmid: Pigeon driving the bus did not like me, and it rolled over me and was like I'm not done. And he rolled back, and then he rolled back over.

171

00:13:15.833 --> 00:13:17.020

Lisa Schmid: So hey!

172

00:13:17.420 --> 00:13:22.100

Lisa Schmid: This year I'm just like I need to regroup

173

00:13:22.750 --> 00:13:28.429

Lisa Schmid: and find my love of writing again. I was, you know, you know, what I went through. Well.

174

00:13:28.430 --> 00:13:44.400

Beth McMullen: There's nothing like running the gauntlet of publishing to destroy your love for the actual writing. It is really hard to separate the 2, but sometimes you have to like you have to go back to the very, very beginning.

175

00:13:44.760 --> 00:13:53.590

Lisa Schmid: Yeah, well, and I just I'm I mean, I am proud of myself, because amidst all the the turmoil that I was in

176

00:13:53.984 --> 00:13:59.949

Lisa Schmid: I was able to eke out my middle grade, but it was one of those things where it was just like

177

00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:07.759

Lisa Schmid: it didn't feel like joyful when I was writing it. It was like, Oh, I just have to get this done because I was dealing with all the other muffs.

178

00:14:07.900 --> 00:14:31.190

Lisa Schmid: And it just was like this just isn't up for me. And so I just as I went through it, I was editing and revising it, and to get it over to my agent and I had to a lot to clean up. I did not realize how much I had to clean up, and I usually don't have that much to clean up, because my I usually edit as I go along. And as I went back through it it was like, Oh, my God! This is a mess.

179

00:14:31.520 --> 00:14:31.849

Lisa Schmid: And

180

00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:37.720

Lisa Schmid: so, and I think it's because I just my heart wasn't in it, because I was so eaten down.

181

00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:45.429

Beth McMullen: You do. You feel like a you feel like a dog that's been kicked too many times? Honestly, it can. It can really start to

182

00:14:45.560 --> 00:14:54.589

Beth McMullen: damage your ability to do the writing. And I have definitely gone through that I've had years where it's just like, I just don't want to do this because.

183

00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:55.010

Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

184

00:14:55.120 --> 00:15:05.069

Beth McMullen: It feels thankless. Right? Because at that point you're thinking about it less as, oh, I love to do this. And okay, when is my next book going to get bought and sold.

185

00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:24.859

Beth McMullen: and those 2 things I think you have to try really, consciously, to separate them. So you've got the writing and the experience of writing, and you know whether or not that feels good. And then you've got the business of publishing. I think a lot of times. And this is something you see people talking about on social media like they don't.

186

00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:40.319

Beth McMullen: They don't realize that the business of publishing is a business, and it is going to be focused on the bottom line, and if you help the bottom line great, they're totally in your corner. If you don't help the bottom line.

187

00:15:40.730 --> 00:15:42.340

Beth McMullen: You're kind of alone.

188

00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:59.340

Lisa Schmid: Well, sometimes they're they're even tripping you up trying to get to the bottom line. And so I think that's 1 of those things that just one of the things I am very grateful for this year is, and having friends in publishing that, you know I

189

00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:07.839

Lisa Schmid: I've been through this before, but you know, even just being able to call my friends and say, Is this normal like this doesn't feel right?

190

00:16:07.950 --> 00:16:21.509

Lisa Schmid: And having been able to talk to friends about what was going on. It was huge. It really helped me navigate through through a difficult year, and I think I owe all my friends a bottle of wine.

191

00:16:21.510 --> 00:16:23.250

Beth McMullen: It's a village.

192

00:16:23.830 --> 00:16:43.330

Lisa Schmid: You guys all had to listen to me. But it's just one of those things that you have to have those people around you. And that's 1 reason why I'm so excited about our new chat room on Facebook, the waiting room. Why is it the waiting room? Because we're always waiting. But it just.

193

00:16:43.430 --> 00:17:11.790

Lisa Schmid: It's a good place to come and talk like if if you have a question or say, for example, like, if you're new to publishing, and you don't know like, is this what happens with an agent, or is this what happens? And you don't have writer friends like this is a place where you can go and ask those questions, and there are people with tons of experience, and there are people that are brand new. It's like I I see every level. You know the writing journey in in the waiting room right now.

194

00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:22.819

Lisa Schmid: and I think it's 1 of those things you can go there, ask the question and get feedback from people who have been in publishing, and can give you answers based on their experience, which is huge.

195

00:17:22.829 --> 00:17:36.629

Beth McMullen: It is really cool. It's cool. And it's a private Facebook group. So you do have to request to join. And there are a couple of questions you have to answer before we let you in, just to make sure that we're keeping it all to

196

00:17:36.629 --> 00:17:52.849

Beth McMullen: writers at various stages. But all people who are really focused on their writing so as not to be distracted by other stuff. It's a great place to vent to those times when you feel like you just want to scream because everybody there, or at least some people there are going to be like, Oh, yeah, I've been through that.

197

00:17:52.849 --> 00:18:08.229

Beth McMullen: You'll be fine, suck it up. So it is a nice little community that we're growing over there. So if you are in the trenches at any at any level. You know, and it looks like something you would want to join. Then just request to join, and we'll let you in.

198

00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:37.620

Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's it's I've already liked the interactions that are going on over there. And it's fun because there's people who I haven't seen or talked to in a long time, like from my novel, Nineteen's group. That was my debut group, you know. A bunch of them came in. They're like, oh, my God! This feels like old times, the old gangs getting back together. And you know then people from like my spooky middle grade group, or the mix of files group. And you know new writers that we've heard from on the show. It just it's fun to see all these people coming together in one place.

199

00:18:38.126 --> 00:18:41.459

Lisa Schmid: You know, just talking about writing and.

200

00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:54.489

Beth McMullen: Yeah. And I mean, social media generally is just too big, like, it's too vast. You feel like you get lost out there. But this is sort of a little subset that makes it feel like it has value which I like.

201

00:18:54.700 --> 00:19:05.979

Beth McMullen: So we have questions, right? We got questions. We gotta. We've we've decided for 2025. There's no Amazon, and there's more dignity. And now we can move on to the questions.

202

00:19:06.870 --> 00:19:08.980

Lisa Schmid: You guys can check back with me.

203

00:19:09.802 --> 00:19:12.089

Beth McMullen: Right, we'll do periodic

204

00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:19.569

Beth McMullen: as to the level of dignity that has been restored or not, I mean, who knows? Things could get wild.

205

00:19:19.570 --> 00:19:19.940

Lisa Schmid: Lovely.

206

00:19:19.940 --> 00:19:25.109

Beth McMullen: Of control. We don't know. We do not know. We can hope, but that's it.

207

00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:36.960

Lisa Schmid: I'm dead set on it like it's like, you know, when you start the New Year. And you're like, I'm gonna work out. And then, you know, next, like in February, I'm gonna be like, you know, there goes my dignity like, what am I doing now?

208

00:19:37.120 --> 00:19:41.049

Beth McMullen: Yes, it's like a parking lot of a gym in February.

209

00:19:41.050 --> 00:19:42.230

Lisa Schmid: Just empty.

210

00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:47.789

Beth McMullen: Nobody there. It's just empty, all right. So questions.

211

00:19:48.350 --> 00:20:07.130

Lisa Schmid: 1st question. Both came in through our website, and a gal had received a couple of rejections from rejections, as we call them, now passes from agents, and a couple of the comments she got was that they didn't have an editorial vision for her book.

212

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.749

Lisa Schmid: and she wanted to know what that meant.

213

00:20:10.890 --> 00:20:20.220

Beth McMullen: So my 1st take on. That is that the editorial vision is

214

00:20:20.550 --> 00:20:33.970

Beth McMullen: the ability of that agent or editor to see the potential of that manuscript, and how it aligns with their publishing goals and their market expectations.

215

00:20:34.210 --> 00:20:39.060

Beth McMullen: so does the book fit into their list.

216

00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:52.340

Beth McMullen: Publishers all have a list, and they'll try to hit different types of books. Do they already have too many in your genre, or with your focus, or with your target audience? In which case they're not going to add another. Does it have

217

00:20:52.480 --> 00:21:09.510

Beth McMullen: potential right? Can it be developed further? Is the potentially a series? Do they see it? As you know. Are they able to to see a vision of it where it's tighter and stronger and just a better book? Marketability like, is it

218

00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:21.569

Beth McMullen: fresh? Can they sell it honestly? Can they sell it to it? Publishing house? Who then feels like they can sell it to the world of readers? That's kind of my feeling about what that means.

219

00:21:22.370 --> 00:21:33.969

Lisa Schmid: And I agree with that. I think a a lot of it is because some agents are very editorial. And they, I I take it as they don't. They like the book? They probably they might like the voice

220

00:21:34.314 --> 00:22:00.230

Lisa Schmid: because you hear that I like your voice, but I don't have an editorial vision. It means they don't know how to elevate the book. They don't know how to like. Take it up a notch. They don't see they don't have that creative vision for it. That you know where they're like. I think another agent would be, you know, better served by taking this manuscript. And so that's how I that's how I would take it that they don't have a way to elevate it.

221

00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:16.840

Beth McMullen: And I wouldn't discount the ability for an agent to visualize where they see that book on the shelf. We talk about that a lot in writing. Where does that book sit on the shelf of, say, your average bookstore? If they can't figure that out.

222

00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:36.940

Beth McMullen: they are not going to want to spend time on it, because it's going to be a hard sell, I mean publishing for better or worse likes to put us all in tidy little boxes, and if they feel like they can't fit you in one of those boxes, then it becomes harder to sell that book. It does not mean that it won't ever sell, but it's it's an uphill climb.

223

00:22:36.940 --> 00:22:37.650

Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

224

00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:38.600

Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

225

00:22:38.830 --> 00:22:54.949

Lisa Schmid: So that's kind of. And that's 1 of those things. That's not. It's not a bad thing. If you get one of those those passes where the agent saying that it's not a bad thing, at least you know one. If I always feel like if an agent is responding, and it's not form letter. That's a win. You already got a win?

226

00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:00.260

Lisa Schmid: Yeah, most of the time you get either silence or just a form letter.

227

00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:15.560

Beth McMullen: Well, and another thing to think about is your submission package. Think about it as more than a polished manuscript. We talked about this with our last guest, Ivan Torsano, the Abrams. Editor.

228

00:23:16.060 --> 00:23:27.279

Beth McMullen: you should be thinking about the market. What is it in the market that your book is going to fulfill some need in the market, so

229

00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:40.459

Beth McMullen: don't you know? Don't roll up to the agent and be like here's my pages. I don't know how to sell them. You should say, Here's my pages, and this is the target audience that I'm going after. And this is why I think that this book would be perfect for this target audience like.

230

00:23:40.520 --> 00:23:58.840

Beth McMullen: Know your market have done some market research, be able to identify a segment that would find your book really, really enticing. So I think you need to nowadays be more aware again of the business angles that the agents and the editors are going to consider when they're reading your pages.

231

00:23:58.840 --> 00:24:15.330

Lisa Schmid: Yeah, and that's and that's 1 of the things that Ivan talked about was, and I totally appreciate that. And after I listened to him. I went back through my manuscript, and just with a fine tooth comb. I mean, he was just one of the things he said is, I want to know that you've put the work in

232

00:24:15.530 --> 00:24:31.690

Lisa Schmid: that, that your manuscript is polished and that you understand. You know the story that you just basically that you put the work in, and you know he wants to take that book and elevate it, but he also wants to see it's the best it can possibly be.

233

00:24:31.690 --> 00:24:48.429

Lisa Schmid: and I think that kind of goes in line with that editorial vision. They. They want that book to be the best. And so, after after listening to him like I said, I went through it, tightened it up, and I just just like I want somebody to see that I've put the work into this story.

234

00:24:49.020 --> 00:24:57.929

Beth McMullen: I think, too, we've been hearing from a lot of agents and editors. They're less willing nowadays to spend an enormous amount of time

235

00:24:58.100 --> 00:25:06.060

Beth McMullen: revising and doing editorial work with you like you really need to deliver something that is polished, and that might be

236

00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:24.740

Beth McMullen: that you need to get an editor on board that you're paying before you send the manuscript or a book coach, or somebody to just kind of walk through it with you, because you are going to have only that one chance of getting that editor getting that agent. And if your material is not

237

00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:46.760

Beth McMullen: really polished to the best of your ability, it's not going to be perfect. Of course there is no perfect, but you really have to have to submit something nowadays. That's that's at a pretty high level, because that's expected, and they don't. Agents and editors have so much work, and they don't have time. They don't have time to fix your problems. You got to at least try to fix your problems before you submit.

238

00:25:47.050 --> 00:26:03.159

Lisa Schmid: Yeah. And you got to know the market like, what's I think before you even sit down to write a book, you, you need to know like, is there a place for it, you know. Sometimes people just sit down like I'm gonna write this book in my heart, you know, if I. You know I hear that all the time. My heart.

239

00:26:03.620 --> 00:26:04.380

Lisa Schmid: Okay.

240

00:26:04.850 --> 00:26:28.940

Lisa Schmid: I get that. I get that. You want to throw your passion into your book. But if the book, your heart doesn't have a place in the market, then you're gonna waste a year, 2, 3, 5 years, or whatever writing a book that doesn't have a place in the market. And so those are. Those are the things like before. I even sit down to write a story. And this kind of leads really well into the next question is, you know, the hook

241

00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:36.769

Lisa Schmid: like what somebody had written to us, and said, What what is a commercial? What does it mean when they want a strong commercial hook?

242

00:26:37.273 --> 00:26:47.006

Lisa Schmid: I always think about that before I even start a story. I'm like, what is the hook to my book, you know. Does. Is this going to appeal to somebody? So

243

00:26:47.420 --> 00:26:50.769

Lisa Schmid: again? That's that's you know, what is a strong commercial hook.

244

00:26:51.550 --> 00:27:01.099

Beth McMullen: Well, I would even go so far as to say you should not be writing your book until you can sum it up into

245

00:27:01.690 --> 00:27:20.899

Beth McMullen: sentences. So I don't know how many people out there know what a log line is. It's it's primarily used in television and movies and and that kind of stuff. But it's a brief one or 2 sentence summary that captures the core premise, the stakes and the protagonist's goal.

246

00:27:21.120 --> 00:27:24.850

Beth McMullen: It needs to be compelling and concise.

247

00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:29.150

Beth McMullen: and if you are starting off to write a book, and you can't

248

00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:54.574

Beth McMullen: write that log line, or at least a version of it, you shouldn't be starting yet, because you're going to go on this wild journey all over the place and waste a ton of time and not really capture what it is you mean like, you really have to have that in your head. It's an elevator pitch, essentially so like, I was thinking about the 4th wing, that book that super popular Ya romantasy one that

249

00:27:54.890 --> 00:28:12.819

Beth McMullen: It was actually a really fun read. I was talking to somebody about it, and so I was like, all right. What would be the logline for that? So an untested cadet must survive a brutal dragon rider, war college bond with a dragon, and navigate treacherous alliances as she uncovers a conspiracy that could destroy her world.

250

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:18.250

Beth McMullen: That is the summary. That is the log line of that book. And if you

251

00:28:18.670 --> 00:28:23.199

Beth McMullen: put that out there to an agent, or whoever they're going to be like. Oh.

252

00:28:23.370 --> 00:28:32.090

Beth McMullen: that's interesting. What's a dragon war called, you know. I mean, it has the elements that are catchy, and you have to. You have got to know those when you start writing.

253

00:28:32.810 --> 00:28:44.180

Lisa Schmid: And and just as in general, just like, what is the whole goal you're driving towards, you know that you want. There has to be something that says makes the reader say, I want to read this book.

254

00:28:44.886 --> 00:28:48.359

Lisa Schmid: Because there, everyone's attention is so short.

255

00:28:48.470 --> 00:29:08.040

Lisa Schmid: And it just is one of those things that you know. If your editor wants to know what the log line is, they just like there has to be a strong hook that reels them in that makes them say, I even want to read what your synopsis is, or what your pitch is based on that hook.

256

00:29:08.370 --> 00:29:16.040

Beth McMullen: Yeah. And, for instance, that one that I just read you for the 4th wing you can identify from that log line. Who the potential audience is.

257

00:29:16.580 --> 00:29:29.380

Beth McMullen: it is obviously a young adult. It is obviously a romantic. It's obviously going to have that appeal to that audience. And that is a big, fat audience. So you're helping yourself not only in

258

00:29:29.590 --> 00:29:31.400

Beth McMullen: creating this

259

00:29:31.450 --> 00:29:44.760

Beth McMullen: very tight, concise summary of your book that you can just spit out anywhere because I mean I could. I could definitely spit out log lines from all of my books anywhere, anytime, because you just have to drill that into your head. So

260

00:29:44.760 --> 00:30:02.999

Beth McMullen: the worst thing is when I say to a writer, what's the book about? And they're like, Well, it's kind of this, and it's kind of that. And then maybe that, and it's like no, no, no, give me 2 sentences. Tight sentences like, Know your you need to know your book better than anybody else, and that's how you get that like. Get that little.

261

00:30:03.030 --> 00:30:12.480

Beth McMullen: that tiny summary stuck in your head. And you know again, back to Ivan. That shows people that you've done the work like you know that about your book.

262

00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:33.320

Lisa Schmid: And when? If, when I was very 1st starting and I had heard about you know, what's your hook? What's your log line? What's you know. Blah blah I had. I had read someplace. Go look at Netflix, and if you go to Netflix they have basically log lines like you click on it, and there's a log line. It says it's like 25 words or less, and it tells you like what

263

00:30:33.470 --> 00:31:01.659

Lisa Schmid: you know. The story is in a nutshell. And so I just would go through. And I would like, read different log lines from Netflix. I would just like click on a movie and be like, Okay, that's that's and I would write them down. And so I could kind of study like, how you know, how does it format it? You know, what do I need to do? What does it need to contain? And it was a really good exercise for me. And that's how I came up with my log line, for Ollie Oxley is just, you know. I went through those. And I was like, Okay, this is what I need.

264

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:08.550

Lisa Schmid: And so that's a really good place to go, if you're thinking like what is log line? I don't even know what it is, you know.

265

00:31:08.550 --> 00:31:10.540

Lisa Schmid: and it can be exercise.

266

00:31:10.540 --> 00:31:20.270

Beth McMullen: You can put it as the 1st line of your synopsis. Yeah, right? And then, you know, this is what I am promising to deliver you in this story.

267

00:31:20.650 --> 00:31:24.200

Beth McMullen: and I think it's I mean, if, honestly, if you just put

268

00:31:24.310 --> 00:31:48.660

Beth McMullen: popular movie log lines into a search, you're going to get a laundry list, and it becomes very obvious the elements that are required to make it snappy to make it really catch attention. And it's a great exercise. It's actually a great exercise to do with. Just pick your top 5 books that you love and write the log lines for them, just to see what's going to happen right.

269

00:31:49.340 --> 00:31:53.610

Lisa Schmid: Oh, that's a good idea! That's a you know. That's a good writing, prompt.

293

00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:32.550

Beth McMullen: Okay. So I think that answers our last question that we wanted to get to today about having a strong hook.

294

00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:46.399

Beth McMullen: And we are also experimenting here on the podcast. One of our goals for the podcast. Is to get some more listeners. We've been doing really well. But we want to do better, right? Because that's just how we roll. So we're going to start

295

00:33:46.910 --> 00:33:54.899

Beth McMullen: putting on social media clips of our actual selves like video clips of us as we are recording the podcast.

296

00:33:59.010 --> 00:34:02.699

Lisa Schmid: Everyone gets to see my bang sound that I look like

297

00:34:02.830 --> 00:34:06.189

Lisa Schmid: Thelma from scooby doo! Actually.

298

00:34:06.190 --> 00:34:11.779

Beth McMullen: Very glamorous. You do not look like a cartoon character from Scooby, doo, you weirdo!

299

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:15.810

Lisa Schmid: After after we finish recording, I'm gonna go meet Scoob and the gang and.

300

00:34:15.810 --> 00:34:17.150

Beth McMullen: Up in the street.

301

00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:18.690

Lisa Schmid: Jinkies.

302

00:34:20.030 --> 00:34:25.069

Beth McMullen: Oh, my God, that's so funny! And then that means everybody can come along on my gray grow out journey.

303

00:34:25.070 --> 00:34:25.709

Lisa Schmid: Oh, my God!

304

00:34:25.710 --> 00:34:37.490

Beth McMullen: My gray hair, and you'll see it. You'll see it in the clips. So we're experimenting with this. It could be a total disaster, and not everything we try to do works out exactly as we intend.

305

00:34:37.550 --> 00:34:57.690

Beth McMullen: But so that's 1 of the goals for the podcast the other goal of course is to bring you continue to bring you amazing agents and amazing editors in conversation. Here we have some good ones lined up, so that's going to be exciting, plus. You get these episodes with us, asking listener questions. So please send us your questions.

306

00:34:58.370 --> 00:35:03.450

Lisa Schmid: Yes, definitely. And if it, the other thing is, if you have a question.

307

00:35:03.797 --> 00:35:20.900

Lisa Schmid: even if it's something that you're going through, that this doesn't feel right or does. This doesn't feel normal. Send it to us. We may not answer it on the air. And I may just shoot you an email back which I do? A lot of times, people email. And I, you know, go back and forth with people and answer questions.

308

00:35:21.175 --> 00:35:33.830

Lisa Schmid: It. Just send them in like, that's what we're here for. We just don't want you to feel alone out there, because it's a very isolating journey at times, and we just don't want you to like, give up, or just think! Oh, my God.

309

00:35:33.870 --> 00:35:38.116

Lisa Schmid: you know, is this, this is horrible! What am I doing? Or.

310

00:35:39.100 --> 00:35:41.419

Beth McMullen: We are here for you.

311

00:35:41.420 --> 00:35:42.050

Lisa Schmid: We are here.

312

00:35:42.050 --> 00:35:44.920

Beth McMullen: We are here for you, and we want you to stay.

313

00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:45.650

Lisa Schmid: Here.

314

00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:46.260

Beth McMullen: Just

315

00:35:46.620 --> 00:35:53.250

Beth McMullen: stay here and to yes, to not feel lonely, because that's terrible feeling, and we don't want that for anybody.

316

00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:53.770

Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

317

00:35:53.770 --> 00:36:04.230

Beth McMullen: Okay. So we should wrap up. So people can go and listen to other podcasts and listen to music. Right? Because we're no longer listening to the news. So that's what that's our marching orders.

318

00:36:04.720 --> 00:36:33.300

Beth McMullen: So that is it for today's episode. Listeners, please remember to visit writerswithwrinkles.net and find out how to support the show by subscribing, following, and recommending, please please do that. For 2025 we would be so grateful, and we are back on February 3rd with Agent Adria Goetz, and we'd love for you to join us for that. I think that's going to be a great episode. I love these agent episodes. I always learn so much so until then, happy reading, writing, and listening. Bye, Lisa.

319

00:36:33.910 --> 00:36:34.990

Lisa Schmid: Yes, bye, guys.