If It Feels Not Normal, It’s Probably Not: Ask Beth & Lisa

Episode Summary:
In this candid "Ask B&L" episode, Beth and Lisa answer a listener question about agent transparency, diving into the red flags of a rocky publishing relationship. They also unpack book coaching, revising habits, and finding sanity as a writer in uncertain times.

Guest Bio:
No guest this episode – just your favorite duo, Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid, authors and co-hosts of Writers With Wrinkles.

Key Discussion Points:

• The value of disconnecting: Beth shares her experience of mentally unplugging and how it relates to mindfulness and creativity.
• Book coaching launch: Beth introduces her new professional book coaching services and website BethMcMullenBooks.com, highlighting offerings like manuscript feedback and query letter Quick Wins.
• Listener Q&A: A writer asks if it's normal for an agent to never share a submission list—spoiler: it's not. Beth and Lisa stress the importance of communication, red flag awareness, and using organizations like SCBWI and Authors Guild for support.
• Agent dynamics: The hosts discuss how writers can (and should) advocate for themselves and treat agent relationships as business partnerships.
• Writing advice: The age-old “edit-as-you-go” dilemma resurfaces, with encouragement to push through messy first drafts instead of polishing prematurely.
• Podcast behind-the-scenes: From sunglasses in their logo to sound editing quirks, Beth and Lisa reflect on their origin story and podcast process.
• Podcast love: Lisa shouts out her appearance on Middle Grade Matters with Shannon Ballam—praised for her smooth delivery and sharp interviews. Listen here: Middle Grade Matters (link to be added in show notes).

Conclusion:
From industry tips to emotional honesty, this episode is a warm, funny, and information-packed check-in with Beth and Lisa. Writers like Luna—aspiring, overwhelmed, and determined—will find comfort and guidance in their down-to-earth advice and hard-won experience. Don’t forget to visit WritersWithWrinkles.net to support the show, explore past episodes, and join the writing community.

Transcript

BETH MCMULLEN

Hi friends. I'm Beth McMullen. 

LISA SCHMID

And I'm Lisa Schmidt. 

BETH MCMULLEN

And we're the co -hosts of Riders with Wrinkles. This is season four, episode seven. And today is an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. It is also special because we are recording on a Saturday. So who knows what's going to happen? We never record on Saturdays. 

LISA SCHMID

No, this is a new thing. 

It is. It's because I was on vacation. I just like didn't do a single thing for six days. I didn't look at the news. I didn't write anything. I just kind of cleared my mind and it was wonderful.

LISA SCHMID

Oh, that's okay. I was back here churning away, you know, on the media, on the news, on my crazy writing. I was telling somebody yesterday that when I came home,

BETH MCMULLEN

telling somebody yesterday that when I came home, you called me right away. And the first thing you said was like, okay, I'm glad you're back. I need to talk to somebody. I've just been sitting crying by myself.

LISA SCHMID

It's not the truth. Too much is happening in the world. And so I was like screaming into the void. And I just, it's like, I'm so used to you being there for me to scream at. And when you weren't there, I think I texted you at one point and I said something and I was just like, oh my God, that's right. She's on vacation. And you're like, I don't want to know. And I'm like, all right, I'll sit on it until you get back. Cause it's really bad.

BETH MCMULLEN

It seriously is a weird. thing to do to just totally check out because you're totally aware that it's going on everything's continuing to go on but just to give yourself that little mental vacation it's kind of like you know how when you're so a couple years ago I tried to learn how to meditate because I was in a very stressful part of my life which doesn't seem to ever end but it was a high point of stress and I was like okay everybody's always talking about meditation maybe this will help me and so I did this this series of meditation trainings. I think it was on like the Calm app or something. And they're always talking about, you know, you're sitting on the side of a river and the river's flowing by and you're just watching all your things float by, your stressors float by, but you're not holding on to any of them. I was really bad at it. I would either fall dead asleep within two seconds of starting it, or I just would start obsessing about my inability to let the things float by in the river. But that's what this was like. I was trying to let all the things out there in the world float by in the river with, you know, I would say I was like 50 % successful. I don't know.

LISA SCHMID

know. Oh my God. I can't, I can't even. And it's, I had a meeting with my agent the other day, a Zoom call. We were talking, my middle grade is about to go on submission. And I'm like, but you know, are we going to be here in six months?

BETH MCMULLEN

But isn't that the question you have on your mind when you're doing anything? Like even booking a haircut appointment, you're like, well, let's hope we're still here in four weeks or eight weeks or whatever it is. I think it's like just hanging over everybody's head. And I swear to God, this thriller that I'm working on every week, it just gets darker. I mean, it's going to end up so dark. I'm probably not going to be able to show it to anybody.

LISA SCHMID

Well, it's like you can't help, but everything like seeps into your psyche and like comes out on paper. You know, right now I'm like, I don't have anything to write. You know, turn that in. I rewrote my chapter book that we're submitting a different one. So it's the second one in the series. So it was going through and rewriting this. I'm like, oh, this seems so light and funny. I don't feel light and funny. Well, suddenly my crime solving bug is taking a really,

BETH MCMULLEN

really dark turn. See, I mean, I read, I think in Publishers Weekly recently, something about how dystopian YA is on the uptick. And I thought to myself, well, of course it is because we're literally living in it right now. So yeah, I mean, makes total sense to me. And all those. snarky things I said about dystopian YA when it was super popular like, what, a decade ago maybe? I take it all back because those young adult authors were all actually Cassandras telling us the truth about the future and we were not paying attention. They're prophets. Absolutely. They can see the future. They were predicting the future and we were just dismissing them as, oh, it's just a book. Yeah.

LISA SCHMID

They can see the future. They were

BETH MCMULLEN

We are now living in the dystopian YA future.

LISA SCHMID

Oh, okay. So let's switch to fun stuff. Fun stuff that I want you to talk about because I'm so proud of you. And this is really exciting is your book coaching. So go ahead. I'm proud of you.

BETH MCMULLEN

proud of you. I'm super proud of you. I was thinking that nobody ever tells me they're proud of me in my life and I need more like positive feedback. So thank you for stepping up and doing that for me anyway. So yeah, this is the. shameless self -promotion portion of writers with wrinkles i so i have always you know helped fellow authors with manuscripts with you know feedback with reading beta reading whatever so i decided oh god this was probably like eight months ago that i wanted to sort of formalize that those offerings so that i can do it for more than just people that i know personally And so I took this course with the author accelerator. You can Google it, find out all about it. It's really awesome. And it was this training for how to be a book coach, which is essentially just like a personal trainer for your writing, someone to help you stay on track, figure stuff out, keeps you going when things get really messy, as in the messy middle, when we all want to quit. So it's accountability, it's feedback. It's editorial feedback, very detailed. It helps you just work through and get to the end so that you have a polished draft that is either ready for self -hub or ready for querying agents. And the Author Accelerator helped me kind of create a framework to do all that stuff better and in a more professional way. actually very hard work. I was surprised. Like I've been in publishing for what, 20 years? I've been writing forever. And when I did this course, I was like, wait, why am I struggling? This is hard, but totally awesome. I recommend if you like that sort of challenge and you have any interesting coaching to go check it out, there's a little info on my newly designed website, which is why I'm doing my shameless promotion today. Just launched my new website yesterday. It is beautiful. I love it. Find it at BethMcMullenBooks .com, which is where I've always been. But now it's this shiny new thing that I want everybody to check out. It has my book coaching packages on it. I also have something called Quick Wins for Authors on there. And those are just low commitment, high impact ways to get. expert feedback and move your project forward. Right now, I have one that is focused on manuscript and one that is focused on a query letter. So take a look at those. Those are, again, low commitment. It's like a two -day turnaround. And then if you're into what I do, maybe you sign up for something bigger. We work together on something else. But please go visit the website because I really do love it. It looks so much better. My last website was like, it was like, a little toddler finger painting. Do you know what I mean? Like it was a mess, but now it's beautiful. So I'm proud of it.

LISA SCHMID

Anyway, people want to see fancy new, and then they can look at my website, which I carved in stone about 10 years ago. It's really bad. Oh my God, it's so funny.

BETH MCMULLEN

It's so funny. We also have a Writers with Wrinkles website, writerswithwrinkles .net. That one is... Actually pretty good. So you can go check that one out too. It has all of our Writers with Wrinkles stuff. So anyway, that brings to conclusion my shameless self -promotion.

LISA SCHMID

I'm excited for you. I know that you've always helped me tremendously. And I have to say you've been posting like little nuggets that keep showing up. And each time, like you're just posting it in Facebook or whatever about like little tips for the day, things you should and should do. And each time I feel tempted. I'm just like, you suck. By the time you post it. I was actually, I think I was talking to Jenny Lundqvist. And I'm like, Beth McMullen's really irritating me right now.

LISA SCHMID

I think one of them was like, stop reviewing the first hundred pages of your book. I actually wrote that one for you.

BETH MCMULLEN

Very specifically for you. Because I know in my heart of hearts, you will never stop doing what you're doing. Because that's who you are. And I love you for that. But at the same time, I'm like, you're torturing yourself.

LISA SCHMID

You know what it is? It's like, oh my God, it's already done. I can go in and shine it and make it pretty. And then I used to, in the very beginning, when I first started writing, I would write all my chapters. And then before I would start, like every day, I would start. Like to sit down to write and I would read the whole thing all over again and then start writing. But it just, it was so time consuming and it's just like, that's how I've worked. And so now I've at least moved away from that a little bit.

BETH MCMULLEN

bit. I'm way better on this, the middle grade that's going out for submission, which I actually love. It's a great, it's a great story. You were way better. You got it done faster. You didn't obsess as much in the middle. So yeah, so soon you're going to be banging out drafts in like 15 minutes. Aww.

LISA SCHMID

The problem with that was though, I'm so used to having a more polished manuscript by the time I'm done. When I went back through it, I'm like, oh my God, this is a hot mess. And I had actually sent it off to a couple people to read and I'm like, oh my God, this is embarrassing.

BETH MCMULLEN

Well, my thing right now. and I've said this to lots of people, is that you can't edit a blank page, right? You really need that first draft. And the first draft is going to be garbage. It's going to be trash. It's going to suck. Like who cares though? You know, you have something to work with. Like you can't edit what's not there. So yes, see, I'm glad that you just, you know, you did it and then you went back and you fixed it. And I think it's way stronger for all of those reasons. Yeah. Anyway, we could muddle around in this forever, but we have a question from a listener.

LISA SCHMID

So the question actually came in through our Instagram account. And a gal was parting ways with her agent. And she had said that her agent hadn't provided her with any submission information, like who it was going out to. She had been with this person for a few years. And they have never provided her with the sub list. And her question was basically, is that normal? I've just never received it. And now we're parting ways. And I don't know who my books have been subbed to. She didn't have anything. And basically, her question is, is that normal? What am I supposed to do with that? And just for the record, that is not normal. That's our theme for today. If it feels not normal,

BETH MCMULLEN

our theme for today. If it feels not normal, it is probably not normal.

LISA SCHMID

It is not normal. And sadly, it reminded me of that gal a few years ago that has, you know, left the industry, but she was kind of a big time agent. Like I had said to her and thank God she never acknowledged me. But she had been telling writers that she had been subbing and she had never been doing it. And so she had strung these agents or these writers along for years saying, yeah, I'm subbing and dah, dah, dah. And she would make a conference. It was crazy. Like, that's like, I can't even remember the agent's name. That one was crazy, but it reminded me immediately of that.

BETH MCMULLEN

even remember the agent's name.

LISA SCHMID

it reminded me immediately of that. I was just like, I, red flags went up and I'm like, you know, the sound shady, but doesn't, it's definitely a red flag. Did you escalate it up to the person above her? Like, did you like try to seek out more information? And she couldn't, she got kind of stonewalled everywhere. And so at the end of the day, she decided to go to the Association of American Literary Agents and asked them, like, is this normal? Is this okay? Can I demand it? And so, because I didn't have a hardcore answer for her one way or the other, I'm like, you can escalate it. But I can tell you right now, that's not normal. And transparency is always key between you and your... agent. I know that with Leslie, I know everything she's doing. I know when she's doing it. I know who she's subbing to. And she's a really big communicator. And so that's one of those things that, you know, especially when you're signing with an agent, don't be afraid to ask, how do you communicate? Will I know what's on who you're going to be subbing to when it's happening? So those are all good questions. And then there's also like tap into professional organizations. If you have questions about something and you're not sure, there's always the Authors Guild, which is a great organization to belong to. And then like for me, I belong to SCBWI and I had a situation years ago and I tapped into them for an answer on my very, very first school visit. And I've talked about this before. is I went to, I was invited to my local middle school to come to a talk to kids in the school library. And it was broken up into two groups. And I went in and I did the first group and we're talking and it was a great, it was a great event. And then I could see like people like the librarian and the PTA president and the teacher whose class it was, there was like a scuttlebutt going on back in the scenes. And I'm like, what's happening? Something exciting is happening. And then when that class left and I was waiting for the next class to come in, I found out I was being kicked out of the school. So I had,

LISA SCHMID

had, it wasn't anything I'd done. Some admin person decided halfway through that I should probably have insurance to be there, which I never heard of when they invited me to be there. And it was, she had sat in on a meeting and I think the insurance was like, if you're bringing crocodiles to school or something and a kid could get their arm bitten off, something like that. But it was such a bizarre thing. So they asked me to leave after the first, you know, when the kids were walking in, they're like, turn around, turn around. That is just so humiliating for the school. I remember walking out to the car and just sitting there in shock and calling you. And I think in the car I was crying. But I immediately went back and contacted SCBWI and said, this is what happened to me. Like, I don't understand. Was I supposed to have insurance? Like, nobody's ever told me this before. Somebody from SCBWI reached out to the school district on my behalf and got answers for me. Like the minute I sent it over, I got an email right away and they reached out and clarified what happened. And it was obviously a mistake. I was in and write it back and the principal apologized. And it was just one of those things, but I had them to tap into. So if you are not part of an organization, I recommend it because they really stepped up for me.

BETH MCMULLEN

It's true. And they have deep resources. All of those membership fees go towards supporting people whose jobs are to figure the legal stuff out, the professional level stuff out, things that it's really hard to answer a lot of those questions when you're just a solo practitioner, right? You're just you. And that's really the, those are the resources that you get when you join these organizations and they're, they're protective. They have your back and that's why you should. find the one that fits what you're working on and what your passion is and what you do and definitely consider joining because you will like this person had this thing happen and what do you do i mean you're not it's not like you just have to roll over and take it there's stuff that you can do so i also just i feel like you know not to beat a dead horse here but when it comes to agents there's no it's not like you need a law degree or a medical degree, you can just say you're an agent. Well, today I'm an agent. And so it's really on you, the client, to figure out if that agent is worth the effort for you. And again, I come back to that sense of like desperation that writers have to get an agent, get an agent, get an agent. Well, a bad agent is way worse than no agent. So do your homework. Who are their clients? Can you talk to them? Like Lisa just said, what is their process? How do they communicate with you? But really, I mean, get those referrals and make sure that the people you're talking to are saying, yeah, this person is great. Definitely sign up. That part's on you. And if you don't do that, you could end up in a situation where you're having buyer's remorse and you don't want to be that person. Like writing is stressful enough. You don't need to add that layer of uncertainty on top of the whole thing.

LISA SCHMID

Yeah. And that's, that's the big thing. I mean, I think the one thing I hear most about from people is a lot of times it's agents problems. Like I haven't heard from my agents in months. I've sent her nudges and I'm just thinking, my God, I send Leslie a text or a message and she's like within an hour, I've got a response. And so I feel like I'm really lucky. And that's because I don't think, well, they're all like that. They're not all like that,

BETH MCMULLEN

not all like that, but you have to remember they work for you. Yeah. If you fail, they fail. To get it twisted around where you feel like you are somehow indebted to them because they took you on as a client. They took you on as a client because they think they can sell your work. And if they can sell your work, they get paid. So they're not going to waste time on you if they don't think that they can sell your work. So it's a partnership. And if you go in feeling like it's not balanced, that you are somehow beholden to them, then you're going to approach it with these kid gloves. I'm afraid to ask them this question. I don't want to be a pain. Well, don't be a pain, but ask the question. Yeah. Don't put yourself, you know, don't put yourself on your back foot and feel like you don't have any control or power in the relationship. I mean, this is your work. Again, I said this before. It's your name on that book. It's not the agent and it's not the editor. So advocate for yourself when. When it's important, don't waste time. Don't waste your agent's time by saying, you know, I woke up in a bad mood and now I can't write like they don't care, nor should they. That's a you problem. If you have a question about something that's going on with the process of the book, then by all means, ask the agent. But like, just make sure you're being thoughtful about what it is you put in front of them that they have to deal with as opposed to stuff that's like not their department. Right. Right. That's good advice. That's why we have the waiting room, our private Facebook group, where you can put all of those questions that you don't want to share with your agent and you will have, you know, a hundred and however many people are in there now that are happy to answer,

LISA SCHMID

right? So speaking of the waiting room, one of our snarky little members. Wait, me or you? Or yeah, we're all kind of like that, aren't we? Madam Rosenbaum, I had a question for you and I, and I thought it was hysterical. If everyone's, I'm sure everyone's seen our, our logo where Beth and I are wearing glasses. And I don't even know where that came from. I think it was because I think I asked the gal to do it because I'm like, oh, we don't look sassy enough. And so I said, come on some sunglasses. I don't even know where it came from. And then she did that. And I was like, ooh. It's a really cute logo. I actually love the logo. I do.

BETH MCMULLEN

It's a really

LISA SCHMID

And I think it's also because the day we decided to do our podcast in Napa, you and I took a picture with our sunglasses on. out in some square or something. I don't know what we were doing. We were wandering around aimlessly. Anyway, that's how I always envision us is that day, you know, taking the pictures with our sunglasses on. So anyway, he's like, so I must assume that you record your podcast with your sunglasses on. And the answer is yes, we do, Adam. And we've posted a picture to prove it.

BETH MCMULLEN

We have a picture just for Adam of us with our sunglasses. I mean, I am wearing bifocal contact lenses behind my sunglasses. Full confession, the wrinkle thing is real.

LISA SCHMID

Oh my God. I also had somebody ask us about the name of our podcast. I was just wondering, oh my gosh, I need to mention this. I can't believe I almost like left this podcast without mentioning this. I was just on middle grade matters. podcast with Shannon Balloon. And she is, okay, first of all, she has a voice built for podcasting. It's so smooth and silky and calm. And so when she was interviewing me, you know, she would ask these questions and then I would come in and I sound like a record screeching.

LISA SCHMID

It's like so calming. And then all of a sudden I'm like,

LISA SCHMID

That is funny. He does such a good job. I mean, and it's amazing podcast. If you guys are middle grade writers, I've just said writers and obviously writers in general. She interviews, all she does is interview authors and she, I get so much information. I listened to middle grade matters on my walks. And the interviews are great. She asks us great questions. She really gets into the nitty gritty of what your process is. And it's really fun and informative. Like I've learned stuff from her other guests and just enjoy them tremendously. So it's hard to put the link on our notes.

BETH MCMULLEN

put the link on our notes. And it has to be something special because I don't like to put other podcasts into our notes because I'm proprietary that way. But this one, I will.

LISA SCHMID

will. She's, and she's amazing and she's very kind and wonderful. And again, she has a voice like butter.

BETH MCMULLEN

And here it's like screechy Lisa. And I feel like I sound like I have cotton stuffed up my nose.

LISA SCHMID

Well, I feel like you and I have like reached a point where sometimes when I'm listening to the podcast, our podcast to, you know, cause you'll be like, listen to the podcast, make sure it sounds okay. And I'm just sitting there listening to it thinking. I don't know which one of us is talking like I think well I use each other it's totally true I use an AI app to create the transcript of the podcast and it confuses us on the regular and I have to go through and say no this is one person this is another person and it's like it doesn't like that it's really hell -bent on the fact that we're like a single person doing the entire thing it's yeah so

BETH MCMULLEN

I think well I use each other it's totally true I use an AI app to create the transcript of the podcast and it confuses us on the regular and I have to go through and say no this is one person this is another person and it's like it doesn't like that it's really hell -bent on the fact that we're like a single person doing the entire thing it's yeah so There you go. That's what happens. You start podcasting. You actually become one person.

LISA SCHMID

I feel like my voice is very whiny. And so I feel sorry for you that you've morphed into my whiny voice. I'm sorry. Sorry, Beth McMullin. Now we're just whiny and nasal.

BETH MCMULLEN

whiny and nasal. So there you go. That's the fruit of our labors. Okay, that's it for today's crazy Saturday morning episode. It almost feels like it's in real time because this one's gonna... be dropping on monday which means that i have to edit it tomorrow goodness there goes the weekend so listeners please remember to visit writers with wrinkles .net that is our very cool website and you can find out how to support the show by subscribing following and recommending and lisa and i are back on april 14th with a guest to be named later and we'd love for you to join us for that because no matter who it is we know it will be fabulous this is just a little bit of scheduling mishap on our behalf so we will fix that and get somebody who's awesome for you to learn many things from. And until then, happy reading, writing, and listening. Bye, Lisa. Beth, bye, guys.