Navigating KidLit and Publishing Realities with Agent Joyce Sweeney

Episode Summary:
In this episode of Writers With Wrinkles, literary agent and author Joyce Sweeney joins Beth and Lisa to explore the challenges and opportunities in today’s publishing landscape. With decades of experience, Joyce shares invaluable advice for writers on market trends, querying, agent relationships, and staying resilient in a tough industry.

Guest Bio:
Joyce Sweeney is the Director of KidLit at The Seymour Agency, where they’ve worked as a literary agent for five years. Prior to agenting, Joyce spent decades as a writing coach, developmental editor, and author of 14 young adult novels and two poetry collections. With a sharp eye for story and deep empathy for authors, Joyce brings a unique blend of industry knowledge and creative passion to every project.

Key Discussion Points:

• Publishing Trends: Middle grade remains tough but not impossible; picture books are more stable, and there's growing interest in unique formats and themes like verse novels and New Age topics.
• Agenting Insights: The importance of concept and hook in a query far outweighs just beautiful prose; originality and marketability are key.
• AI in Publishing: Joyce sees no real threat from AI to traditional publishing, emphasizing that creativity, emotion, and lived experience can’t be replicated by machines.
• Advice for Writers: Write what you love, not what’s trending; publishing is cyclical and unpredictable. Persistence and a strong concept will eventually open doors.
• Red Flags & Green Flags in Queries: Be clear about your genre and word count; know your audience; don’t blindly pitch without researching agents.
• When to Walk Away: A lack of communication, refusal to share submission information, or pushing you toward predatory publishers are serious warning signs.
• What Joyce is Looking For: Unique YA stories, New Age themes in picture books (like astrology and pagan holidays), and anything that surprises her.

Conclusion:
Joyce Sweeney brings refreshing honesty and deep insight into the challenges of KidLit and the wider publishing industry. Her advice emphasizes the importance of a standout concept, a resilient mindset, and choosing the right agent-client match. Writers are encouraged to stay the course, believe in their work, and always lead with heart.

Mentioned Links:

• Podcast blog & notes: https://writerswithwrinkles.net
• The Seymour Agency: https://theseymouragency.com

Transcript

BETH MCMULLEN

Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen. And I'm Lisa Schmidt. And we're the co -hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season four, episode 16, and today we're excited to welcome Joyce Sweeney to the show. Joyce is the director of KidLit for the Seymour Agency. They have been a literary agent for five years, and before that, they were a developmental editor and writing coach. Joyce is also the author of 14 young adult novels and two books of poetry. So welcome, Joyce. Thanks for being here. We're very excited to have you.

JOYCE SWEENEY

I'm very excited to be here. And I do have wrinkles.

BETH MCMULLEN

You are already in the club. You fit right in. So 14 books.

JOYCE SWEENEY

When did your first book come out?

BETH MCMULLEN

did your first book come out?

JOYCE SWEENEY

Well, that was in the dark ages. That was like 1984 was my first published novel when I was a young, young, young person. And then my... YA careers spanned from the 80s through, I guess, the early 2000s. So those 14 books were scattered along in there.

BETH MCMULLEN

I know, but 14 is still a big number, no matter the timeframe. Are you working on writing anything now, or are you primarily focused on the agenting side?

JOYCE SWEENEY

I think like all writers who work for a long time, I've quit writing many times. I quit for a decade once and ran a theater company just to get away from the whole publishing world. So there were breaks, but I am, yes, back to writing and I've been doing adult historical. So I'm in a completely different space. Don't know what I'm doing and having a wonderful time.

BETH MCMULLEN

That is fabulous. Lisa and I quit writing, I don't know, every couple of days. So she quits Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I quit Tuesday, Thursday. You have to.

JOYCE SWEENEY

have to. It's good for your sanity to say, okay, okay. I'm walking away. And then you're like, well, maybe one more submission.

LISA SCHMID

Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know how to write anymore. So I felt it was best just to stop. Like at that point, I'm starting a new project and just staring at it like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. We're all lost.

JOYCE SWEENEY

all lost. I think that makes me a good agent. I can empathize with my authors. I mean, I completely know what they're going through. And sometimes they just need a meeting. Just so I can say, don't kill yourself. Yeah. That ledge. Yeah. This is a very hard business. It's one of the hardest, I think.

BETH MCMULLEN

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

JOYCE SWEENEY

And we're all free and sensitive too. So there's that.

BETH MCMULLEN

It's a bad combination.

LISA SCHMID

It is. It's rare. It's rare that we have somebody come on that's just like, God, isn't publishing just awesome and fun? Never. Like in all the years we've been doing this, usually before we start recording people, you're like, how's it going? How's your new thing? I hate it. I hate publishing. This is the worst. My hair is falling out. So we have yet to have somebody say this is like the place to get into it. It would be deceptive to hiring authors to say,

JOYCE SWEENEY

to get into it. It would be deceptive to hiring authors to say, hey, it's a walk in the park every day. I honestly don't know how we deal with somebody who came on and was just...

BETH MCMULLEN

honestly don't know how we deal with somebody who came on and was just... fully 100%. Like, I love this. It's great. Every minute is wonderful. I think we just, you know, have to stop the recording on how we proceed. Yeah,

JOYCE SWEENEY

yeah. I should say agenting is more fun because agenting, you know, you have multiple clients. So there's relatively more successes, you know, because one of them is bound to be selling something at any given time.

LISA SCHMID

That explains my agent, Leslie. She's always so joyful and positive. You know, which is good because we all need therapy. Like every, you know, I'll go back and be like, you know, the end is nigh. And, you know, da, da, da. Right. You'll like turn around and do something really positive. It's good to see that they do buy something.

BETH MCMULLEN

you know, I'll

JOYCE SWEENEY

good to see that they do buy something. You know, editors are buying books and getting excited about them. And I work in picture books a lot. And those are so beautiful with the artwork and everything. So there's a lot of uplift for me. In fact, I'm better as a writer now.

LISA SCHMID

me. In

JOYCE SWEENEY

Because the agenting kind of lifted me up out of those feelings.

LISA SCHMID

Good. Well, this is a good way to jump into our first question. Because, you know, we're seeing so much uncertainty in the publishing world. Specifically, I think, with Kidlit. And so I was wondering what trends you're currently seeing in the publishing world. Is, you know, like, is middle grade coming back? Is, you know, what's the... Don't give the face. Oh, my God. Listener, she just gave the face.

JOYCE SWEENEY

I actually made a prayer position with my hands. What's the status? What are we looking at? For the five years I've been agenting, every year the editors say, you know, middle grade is tough right now. And I'm like, well, when the heck? And it still is. Now, with that said, I just, if we had a camera, I'd hold it up. I just sold my first middle grade. So I'm very excited about that. I've got an ARC. And it was a verse novel, so it wasn't even like an easy sell or anything like that. So it is hopeful. I think it's just something, you know, they explain it to me. The bookstores, something, COVID, it threw the middle graders out somehow. They weren't getting marketed to like they need. And everybody's trying to figure it out. And the publishers are working very hard for it because... Middle graders are important human beings and they need books they love to read. So there's a disconnect here. They have migrated to graphic novels a lot. And that's a loss on the book side. But that's okay because graphic novels are kind of awesome too. But I've not yet heard, hey, we're having a boom in middle grade. And I'm sure it's coming. I'm going to stay in the business until some editor says to me, more middle grade, please. We need all the middle grade we can take.

BETH MCMULLEN

It feels like it turns on a dime too, right? You have those periods where middle grade is dead, it's dead, it's dead. And then I feel like sometimes the next day, it's back. It's huge. You got to be writing. I mean, I actually, I've been in this universe for 20 plus years now. And I think it's not just middle grade, it's every genre. It's always up or down. It's never just steadily. You know, moving along at the same rate. It's all over the place. I would say picture books are pretty steady.

JOYCE SWEENEY

the place. I would say picture books are pretty steady. The up and down is really little. So it's like they're always selling, but the up and down is little. Like this year, it's down like an inch, but it's not a big deal. But yeah, what happens, this is why it's like that, is because they chase, the editors are chasing the hot things. So let's say in YA, Romanticy. is a hot buzzword. Then they buy six years ahead on Romanticy. So they've got 500 projects that they've bought. So then when you send it in, they're like, no, no, no, not that. So you have to be really careful. Like everybody was saying lower middle grade, younger middle grade, that's the way to go. So all my clients pulled over and started doing chapter books. And now they're saying, where's the upper middle grade? Why aren't we getting up on it? So it's like that. Honestly, sometimes I think the best thing is just pick what you really do best and what you really love and just stay the course and keep sending it and you'll hit, you know. And there's always, even if you have the most unpopular thing, there's one editor somewhere that might just love it. I mean, I've really learned that, is that you can't just say the whole industry is not going to want this. Like, I've sold some very... heavy subjects in picture books, which is harder to do. But there are certain editors that just love it. And it's been my mission to find them. So there's that kind of thing too. You can ferret out a certain editor who's right for whatever it is that you do. I mean, it's very hard for authors to do that. It's almost impossible. But for an agent, we should be, that should be our primary job is how to matchmake and how to find the editor for your author rather than... contort your author into something that they're not, which is the worst thing you can do.

BETH MCMULLEN

how to find

BETH MCMULLEN

I like the way you put that, that it's a matchmaking relationship. And I do, I love what you said about writing what you're good at, what feels good. I find that it's hard for writers to try to write to a trend. And sometimes that trend is gone by the time you're done with the work. So you've done all this effort trying to bend yourself, like you said, into something that you're not, and then it doesn't work anyway. Well, we found out in picture books,

JOYCE SWEENEY

in picture books, picture books take three to five years to be published. So if you go to the bookstore trying to understand what's going on, you're looking back in time, like when you look into space and you see the stars that were there 100 ,000 years ago. So authors can't possibly guess by looking at the bookstore what is being bought right now. So forget it. Either subscribe to Publishers Marketplace or just ask your agent.

BETH MCMULLEN

That is everybody write that down. Grab a pen, write that down. So our next question, this is kind of a big one, but I'm very curious to hear what you're going to say. So how do you see the future of traditional publishing evolving with everything that's happening with artificial intelligence and other pressures that are on the industry? What is your sense of where we're headed?

JOYCE SWEENEY

Well, I've lived a long time and I've been in and out of the book industry for a long time. And there's always like, this is going to kill traditional publishing. It comes up, it came up in the 80s, it came up in the 90s, it came up. And so I've stopped worrying about it. There really is nothing like traditional publishing. And what people don't like about it is what makes it good. There's lots of gatekeepers. So you're going, you're running a gauntlet, you're trying out for the Olympics. It's so hard to get through. everything got a little harder the last couple of years because there's fewer editors now. In fact, editors become agents. And when editors become agents, our pack of wolves is running after one little fox all the time. So it gets really horrible for the editors. They get overloaded. So this year I've had to be like super kind and patient to the editors because I realized they're getting a huge volume and I don't want to slow down or do less because I'm competing. But you have to be like, okay, if you need a year to read it, if you need a year to read that picture book, you take that year. You know, at the end of the rainbow, we'll have a deal. But I don't see, you know, I don't see that indie has caused a problem because it's been around now forever. And it seems like it has its audience and traditional has its audience. And it's just completely, it's not even about quality. It's about something else I don't understand. Because I don't understand indie publishing too well. But it's there, but it doesn't bother us. It's like we're still robust and everything is happening. AI is never going to be a problem. You know, I could allude to somebody's, you know, podcast last week that AI accidentally praised Hitler by mistake.

JOYCE SWEENEY

Because, you know, if you feed in the wrong thing into the wood chip or different bad things come out, AI can't think. It can calculate. All it can do is calculate. So, you know, we were scared when the calculator was invented. I remember it's like, you know, this will destroy our math brain and we won't be able to function. It really didn't. So everything I've seen that's been produced by AI, I can spot it in a heartbeat. And the whole industry is completely, in traditional publishing, shut down to we don't accept anything that's AI. We don't accept artwork that's AI. And believe me, you can see it. You can tell that nobody can fool you. And it's just, it's, you know, even meeting notes. When I read the meeting notes from AI, it's so repetitive and they say the same thing 12 times. And, you know, or if I try to do research on, I do historicals, I do research and they'll say something like, you know, Sir Gareth was the knight of the round table and they had a code of chivalry and they were fine young men. I'm like, yeah, I know that. It'd be something I can use. So I don't really, I don't feel threatened. Now, I know people keep saying the technology as it builds on itself will get greater and greater. But, you know, artists and writers take their lived experience and craft it into magic. I don't see how, no matter what you feed into the robot, how the robot's going to be able to do that. And I've noticed that the spell checkers are getting stupider. And I think it's because they're feeding in too much from chat GPT. Like they're offering me the wrong words. They don't seem to, they used to be smarter. So I don't even know. So the point, I'm always, I'm never worried about anything. I try to be an optimist, but I don't think, I think traditional publishing will be with us forever. And I sure think picture books can't be replaced by electronic books or anything like that. You know, the kindergartner, they want a book they could chew on. love the pictures and carry it all around the house. So I don't see any problem.

LISA SCHMID

Love that answer. And you have stuck with the theme of agents are very positive.

JOYCE SWEENEY

Yes, we have to be.

LISA SCHMID

Yeah, no, and I love it.

JOYCE SWEENEY

and I love it.

LISA SCHMID

And that's the answer we were looking for. We had just, our last Ask Beth and Lisa podcast, we did kind of a deep dive into AI. And that's the same thing we kind of came up with. You put something in and it just comes out weird. And it's just, I found like, even if you ask for information, it's, you know, I can just for what I need, you know, I could easily just ask Google and get the same information I need. So anyway,

BETH MCMULLEN

I need.

LISA SCHMID

so I have a question. It's very off topic. And I don't think this is something we've ever asked one of our agents before, but what's something writers don't understand about the agenting side of business?

JOYCE SWEENEY

I know. I know the number one thing I would want to say, and that is that what people buy, is your concept. It's the soundbite of what your story is. It is your craftsmanship. You have to have craftsmanship to get there. But a lot of aspiring writers, I think, keep saying, I'll work on my craft more. I'm not making it so I'll work on my craft more. But what they may be doing is pitching out something that is so quiet or derivative or it's been done or nobody likes it and they're just getting... They're getting those passes that say, this is so beautiful and lyrical, but it doesn't fit my list. And it just means, doesn't fit my list means I don't know how to make money on it. I don't know how to sell it. I don't know how to pitch it. And I have to pitch it to the editors. The editors have to pitch it to the committee. The committee has to pitch it to the bookstores and the outlets and the distributors. So you have to have some kind of hook. It just can't be, my mother was a beautiful woman. You know, it just can't be the bear had a nice day and ate a sandwich. It just can't be that. It has to be like something, something, even on a little board book for a baby. And I've sold more of those than I expected to. Suddenly I'm a big old board book agent, which I didn't ever expect. I don't even, I like kids, but I don't like kids that age at all. I'm not a baby person. But anyway, but I've noticed the ones that are selling, they have some. brilliant little hook that makes it different. It's not just pretty. It's not just a child's experience. Is there something special each time? Like I have one author that does really interactive ones where they ask, when you're reading the book, you're asking the child their opinions about everything. So it's like a back and forth. So that made her special. That's what put her on the map. I have one who has one that's looking at different things in nature and saying, it's this to a raccoon. It's this to a rabbit. It's this to a mouse. See? And you're nodding with recognition because that's a hook. That's a hook. So the editor saw that, bought a couple of books, and they were going to buy a couple more, I think. So it's that. So wherever you are, whatever genre you're in, it can't sound like everything else we heard in the 25 queries a day that we get. You know, just calculate that for a minute for a year. 25 queries a day, approximately. Worse on certain bad days, like the first day of school, everybody... I don't know what that is. People are still following the school year. In September, it's like, oh my God. It's also because teachers are off and they can write so that all the submissions come in September. But anyway, you have to stand out in the idea. So think harder about the idea. And critique groups never talk about your idea. It's like it would be impolite. I'm not going to tell you that your idea was wrong. I'm just going to critique the work. So you're not really getting feedback. And again, but when I do, I do it for my clients all the time. I just say, I'm sorry that we will bang our head against the wall with that idea. That idea is not enough for a sale. And so, but I still try not to warp them into, you know, here's something to do. I never, I don't prescriptive. I don't tell them. You know, I will tell them trends, but it has to still come from their heart. It still has to be their creation or it's flat. It won't be good.

BETH MCMULLEN

My agent said to me when I first started working with her years ago that there are no new ideas, but you have to have a fresh take. And if that's that little, that spark that you're talking about, it has to be unique. And the idea itself could be old as time, but. the way you're looking at it needs to be unique. And I think I am, I 100 % agree with you that people overlook that and they get obsessed about some part of the manuscript, like craft or the first chapter or whatever. But if the idea doesn't fly, then nobody cares about the craft.

JOYCE SWEENEY

No. I mean, we do care about craft all the time. You can't even get in the casino to gamble if you don't write beautifully. But... When we're sifting through all those beautiful things, you know, I can spot an exciting idea after five years of doing this like that, and so could an editor. And so, you know, my job is to find those things and get them out there so the editor will buy it.

BETH MCMULLEN

That is very good for people to remember. So what are some... green flags and red flags that you notice in queries and submissions? What are things that people are doing that are, yes, that's great. And what are things that they're doing that you're thinking, oh, please don't do that? Well,

JOYCE SWEENEY

now I'm going to be negative because I'm thinking the red flags way more than the green flags. Villains are always more fun. Well, there's so many. There's so many. And, you know, this could help people, I think. I mean, at first, tell me what you have. Like people will pitch a story. They'll go right into pitching the story. I'll be like, is this really for children? Is this a picture book? Is this a middle grade? Is this, they don't tell me. And so, and I'm irritated. I won't have to ask them back. You know, what is this? It should be. So that should be in every query. What is this? It's a how many word, what? Like I do my own pitches that way for the editors. So it's like, I have a so many word, nonfiction picture book about blank. If they don't want it, then they can just read that first line and be done. And it's just much easier than sifting through the words and trying to figure it out. So explain what it is. Please know the difference between a literary agent, an acting agent, a real estate agent. Like, don't laugh. Don't laugh. I get queries from actors all the time and from screenwriters and from adult writers. And from other people where, you know, something is on my wish list is I don't like this, but I'll get it. So I know they're not looking. I know they're not. They're just got to, you know, here's an agent. Just send it to them. So try it. You don't have to target like crazy because you can actually like waste your time. If you try to, the one thing wrong with wish list, see, I'm just going to go off road and just talk about what I want to. The one thing wrong with wish list is when I say what I really love. I have a lot of it already because I love it. For example, nonfiction. I've acquired a lot of nonfiction clients. I accidentally took on three more from Picture Book Party without realizing they were nonfiction. So I'm loaded. So if new nonfiction ideas come through, I'm like, Joyce, stop. You have your list. Stop. No matter how tempting that story is. So the things that we put that we like might not be what you should query. You know, you might want to go around and think, what else might they like that wasn't on that list? Or, you know, if they like that, maybe they would like this. So it's tough. But also you have to know, agents just can't acquire new clients every day. You know, we have to be, that is the, I think the hardest part of my job is resisting the urge to take everything I love. Because I've... I get a love idea every day from somebody. And it's like, no way. Where's the slot for this? This is competing with the other people. You've got to have, there's so many editors. And there's so many certain kind of editors and certain kind of editors. So you have to think, have I got too many people on the same group of editors? So we really have to be careful. And the biggest advice I would give anybody is go to a new agent. Go to a young agent. Go to somebody that's just starting to build their list. that's when we do the impulse buys that's when we just i'll take a little of this and some of that and a few of these and so that's you know at my point now it's like wait wait wait wait hold back so and i would say the more the more the agent has been in the business unless there's someone who dumps clients a lot there's a few of those people they they're almost can't take anything they almost can't take anything so People always want to go to a top agent, but a top agent really has their world all figured out. They know exactly how they're making their money. They don't need anybody new. So I would go for the new one.

LISA SCHMID

for the new one. That actually leads very well into the next question. We've been getting a lot of this. We have our Facebook group, The Waiting Room, where people are always bringing up questions. And actually, right before I came on, somebody had messaged me. an agent question. They had some concerns. They're thinking about signing with them. And so what should a writer consider walking? When should a writer consider walking away from an agent or an offer? That's like there's red flags or, you know, they're seeing something that makes them feel uncomfortable. Are there any red flags that you can think of off the top of your head that you should say, you know, timeout, maybe it's time to ask more questions?

JOYCE SWEENEY

You should always ask a lot of questions. Well, if your agent tells you don't take this offer, they've got a good reason. There are, we won't name any names, but there are presses that have predatory contracts and you can't negotiate out of them and they will hurt your client's career. And that's another one of the hardest things to do is when someone is debut and they're waiting for that big break and they say, look, I got an offer from, I'm going to F you press.

JOYCE SWEENEY

And we have to say, no, we don't want you at that imprint. They're predatory. They could be legitimate business people, but they want to take advantage of an author. They're looking for a huge advantage that's not fair. Like when you go to the big six, they're reasonable. You can talk to them. You can ask for more. You can explain the situation. They're nice people. You can tell right away they're very nice people. But other people are not so nice. And so as an agent, I do have to steer people sometimes away. If they have sold really well someplace and they get an offer from a really small press, I have to say, what's that going to do to their numbers? It's going to look like it's going down. And so that can be hard on the next committee when you try to go back up again. So there's a lot of considerations like that. So that's why I wouldn't take all offers I get. And I just recently steered a client, a new client. I could have gotten a new client, a contract, but I steered them away because I didn't think that was where their career should start.

JOYCE SWEENEY

So with an agent, there's a couple of things I would not like. I think I've heard there's agents that won't tell you where you've been sent. I find that extremely confusing. There's agents, there's a lot of, there seem to be a lot of agents that ghost. Now, I don't know if that's just because authors are so needy to be talked to that it's just ordinary time management, but it seems like ghosting. But, you know, if you... I have a good score on this. If you've done any homework, I have a really good score on responsive because I'm, again, a writer. And I'm like, if they ask a question, they really want to hear from me. So I try to be 24 hours within the week. If somebody can't get back to you within the week, even if the answer is, I can't look at this right now, but I'll do it a week from Tuesday, even if it's that, they should be responsive enough to treat you like you have respect from them. So, but you certainly need to know where your submissions are, what has happened to them. If you want to see the passes, I tend to try to keep my clients from seeing the passes, but I, you know, present them. I present them with pertinent facts. I mean, sometimes there's like a nasty comment and I just don't want anybody to see that. Is that going to help anybody feel creative? It's not. And I don't, I don't personally send the pass the minute I get it. Because what if we send out a brand new, shiny, beautiful submission on Tuesday, and on Tuesday it comes back from one editor? Do I want to do that to the writer? You know, a month from now, I'll say, oh, so -and -so passed. But it doesn't feel like, boom, it came back in your face the minute you sent it out. So, yeah, look, I'm protective. Sorry. You know, creative people are fragile. You know, you can't. It's bad. It's hard enough. You don't want to buffet them around in the wind. So I'm a little protective.

BETH MCMULLEN

And we're very good at ruminating on things. So that past that comes back, you just can't stop thinking about it. Yes, that's kind of how you feel all day long.

JOYCE SWEENEY

Thanks to you. Yes,

BETH MCMULLEN

Yes, absolutely. So we were just talking about how some of the stuff that is on your wish list, maybe you're not looking for that anymore. What kind of stuff are you... Are you excited about now? What's your dream manuscript or the story type that you're still hoping to find?

JOYCE SWEENEY

I think, well, I'll give one category. I really like new age stuff and I haven't seen a lot of like great picture books about astrology or crystals or something like that. I got one client that's doing pagan holidays and I'm totally excited about that because it's just different, you know? And so I think the big thing would be different because again, at my point, in time i've built the list that i love i've got these guys these guys these guys these guys these guys i'm still expanding in ya probably because i came into that later i waited a while till i thought i was ready to take on ya so i'm probably looking for different things in ya but i'm pretty kind of full i'm like the alligator that just ate so it's like i'm i'm not hunting but if something really surprises me grabs me And that's so ineffable. There's no way to say it would be this kind of story or that kind of story. It's like I read the query and I'm like, wait, wait. You know, sometimes if it's all your favorite things in one query, you know, set it in New Orleans. You'll get a real good read from me.

BETH MCMULLEN

Set it in New Orleans. That's good advice. Everybody make note. New Orleans are best. I'll get like a hundred.

JOYCE SWEENEY

best. I'll get like a hundred.

BETH MCMULLEN

You're going to get a whole bunch.

JOYCE SWEENEY

I gave this interview my first year as an agent, and it was to Jonathan Rosen. And I said, we were talking about your favorite picture book from when you were a child. And I had one that nobody knew about. It's obscure, but it was called Space Cat. And it was about this, because it was two things I loved. So it was this cat that went to other planets and met creatures and whatever. The day after that, everybody had a query about a space cat. I was like, no, no. That's what I liked when I was five. That's not what I want now.

BETH MCMULLEN

That does not surprise me at all, at all that you got inundated the next day.

JOYCE SWEENEY

There are people doing that sort of chasing agent interviews and trying to glean.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. And, and really trying to unpack the, like, what are they really saying? That is, I like the idea of the new age stuff though. I mean, maybe there is somebody out there who has something that fits that bill. So, all right, listeners make note.

LISA SCHMID

I know that you're closed for queries. Do you ever, is there ever a window in the year that you open up? Like I know my agent, I think opens up like once a year or something. I can't remember. There's always like a small window that she opens up. Is that how you work or are you just completely closed off right now?

JOYCE SWEENEY

Right now I'm closed off because I do certain things throughout the year that get me clients. And when I've gotten the quota, I have to stop. So I over shopped at picture book party. I don't know if you guys know what that is, but it's a contest online. So it's so beautifully curated. They take a thousand submissions and boil it to 50. They're all great. So it's like going in the best shoe store you ever saw and just like seeing all the beautiful shoes. So I got three and that's like, okay, take a pause. So I'm closed right now because I have to be. I don't have a specific way, like I do it for six months or I'll just wait until I feel like, okay, everything has quieted down now. I can open up again and then I'll just quietly open up. Everybody notices right away when you reopen. They're like, I don't know. You guys are brilliant. You're like really brilliant at stalking everybody. And that's what we do to editors too.

BETH MCMULLEN

Do you tend to post when you do quietly open? Do you tend to post that on social media or you just whispered into the wind? If someone was stalking you, how would they catch those moments?

JOYCE SWEENEY

It would be, there's a biography on our website at the Seymour Agency that says I'm closed. If I'm open, I'll open it. Okay. On Publishers Marketplace, there's a thing that says I'm closed. If it's open, I'll open it. manuscript, wishlist, wishlist, you know, all those places where I'm saying close and people don't right away. They know. Yeah. And then they tell all their friends. Yes.

BETH MCMULLEN

Then you're up to your eyeballs in a hot minute. Yes.

JOYCE SWEENEY

Yes. That's the one problem with closing. When you reopen, there's a done huge thing.

BETH MCMULLEN

So Joyce, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of these insights with us. There's some really good stuff in here that I know our listeners are going to appreciate. So thanks for taking the time today.

JOYCE SWEENEY

Okay. Can I say one final thing or am I over time? Absolutely. You are not over time.

BETH MCMULLEN

You are not over time. Go for it.

JOYCE SWEENEY

it. Okay. I just do want to say to everybody out there, because I'm out there struggling in the trenches with you too. And I know how frustrating it can get sometimes, but there's an awful lot of just luck and timing.

BETH MCMULLEN

an awful

JOYCE SWEENEY

sometimes I think a project is so amazing and it will take years to sell. And I'll be like, why did that happen? Or something that I don't even think is anything. Don't tell my clients, but I think it's just a little whatever, you know, and boom, you know, it just sells right away. So there is a lot of like uncertainty. It's, it's probably not the quality of your work. So you just have to, it's really the persistence of the writer, I think is the best thing because the longer you try and the longer you stay. eventually you're going to make a connection with somebody that's going to help you. So just wanted to say that so nobody gives up.

BETH MCMULLEN

That is, yeah, that's very important. We hear that a lot. Like you can't win if you're not in the game. So stay in the game, even if sometimes you're getting knocked down. So thank you for all of that. We are deeply grateful. Listeners, remember, you can find out more about Joyce by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles .net. And we've told you how they open up. So make sure that you, if you're interested, you're keeping track of those things. And a quick reminder that the best way to support the show is to buy our books. Lisa and I are out there in all the bookstores, online, wherever it is that you purchase your books. Please consider that as a way to support our efforts here. And we are back next time with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. So please see the podcast notes for how to send us a question or use any of our social channels to submit a question. And until then, happy reading, writing, and listening.