Trademark Trouble? Copyright Pitfalls? Ask Beth & Lisa!

In this Ask Beth & Lisa episode of Writers With Wrinkles, Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid share updates on their current writing projects and dive into hot publishing topics: copyright oversight, AI-related lawsuits, and the rules of using brand names in fiction. They also unveil details for their new First Page Feedback segment and tease an upcoming Writers With Wrinkles retreat.

Guest Bio
No guest this week—just cohosts and authors Beth McMullen (Mrs. Smith’s Spy School for Girls, Lola Benko Treasure Hunter, Secret of the Storm) and Lisa Schmid (Ollie Oxley and the Ghost), bringing candid advice and insider stories from the world of publishing.

Key Discussion Points

• Writing Updates: Lisa announces she’s pivoting from middle grade to writing cozy mysteries, while Beth wrestles with revisions on her dark psychological thriller. Both share challenges of voice, tense, and confidence in switching genres.
• Copyright Oversight: A cautionary tale about publishers failing to file proper copyrights—why authors must confirm their works are registered, the risks of neglect, and how it connects to ongoing AI lawsuits. Link  for checking your copyright status: https://copyright.gov/
• Trademark Use in Fiction: Guidelines for mentioning real brands in your writing. Neutral product mentions (Coke, Nike) are fine, but avoid negative associations that harm a brand’s reputation. Learn when to invent fictional stand-ins and why publishers sometimes over-police brand references.
• First Page Feedback: Writers can now anonymously submit the first 350 words of a work-in-progress (picture book, MG, YA, or adult) for on-air feedback. Focus is on craft, clarity, and hook. Full submission details available at writerswithwrinkles.net
• Upcoming Retreat: Beth and Lisa tease a low-pressure writing retreat designed for community building, creativity, and wine—with hints about the Mark Twain Room at their chosen venue.
• Next Episode Preview: Agent Leslie Zampetti returns to discuss red flags and best practices for author-agent relationships.

Conclusion
This episode blends practical advice with personal storytelling—whether you’re navigating genre shifts, protecting your copyrights, or deciding how to handle trademarks in your manuscript. Don’t forget to check the show notes for the copyright lookup link, submission details for First Page Feedback, and to sign up for the Writers With Wrinkles newsletter at writerswithwrinkles.net

Please rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to help spread the word!

Transcript

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Beth McMullen: Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen.

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Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmid.

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Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season 4, episode 21, and this is an Ask Beth and Lisa episode, and today we have, like, a thousand things to talk about.

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Beth McMullen: But we're gonna start with the selfish POV of talking about, where we are in our books. Lisa is working on something new. And actually, I think I'm more excited than she is about it.

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Lisa Schmid: No, I'm excited about it, but it is something very new for me, and so I think I… I can't remember… you know what? I've talked so much about this recently, whether it's, like, having lunch with a writer friend, or I know we spoke with it about Leslie, who's gonna be, her episode will be airing next time, where I'm switching gears, and I, you know, I've said I've…

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Lisa Schmid: I'm a middle grade writer going through a midlife crisis.

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Lisa Schmid: And so…

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Beth McMullen: I think we could put that on some swag.

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Lisa Schmid: I know, it just… I'm not feeling it right now, and I think there's a lot of reasons that contribute to,

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Lisa Schmid: my angst about writing middle grade. I've… I just am not feeling it right now, and I love, love, love, love cozy mysteries, and so I've decided to take the leap and write adult fiction.

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Beth McMullen: I would have done some science.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm.

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Beth McMullen: I'm gonna put some sound effects in here. I did that once, I think I know how to do it.

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Lisa Schmid: It was funny.

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Beth McMullen: Because it's good, like, this is a major, major shift. Like, you have always thought of yourself fully 100% as a middle grade writer, so this is an evolution.

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Lisa Schmid: It is, and it's very hard for me. There's a couple things that are hard about it, besides everything. One, I'm writing in first person, which I'm not comfortable with, and…

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Lisa Schmid: I… there's… I'm a very dialogue-driven person in my storytelling, and that's great for middle grade, because it creates lots of white space, but it's not great for cozy mysteries.

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Lisa Schmid: And so I… as I'm reading them, you know, I'm reading a series right now that I love, and, I'm stressing as I'm reading it, because I'm just like, I don't know if I can do this. This is very, very different, so I'm going to be going.

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Beth McMullen: You can totally… you can totally do it. I have no doubt at all, because I feel like your middle grade mystery voice is not that far off of a cozy mystery voice. I feel like… I mean, I think the first person just takes a little practice.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: This thriller that I'm working on that's in sort of its final revisions has two points of view, so it has the first person, which I'm very comfortable with, and third person, which I am like an idiot. I don't know what I'm doing.

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Beth McMullen: And it took me a bunch of chapters to get comfortable. It was just trial and error. Like, I'd write it, and I'd think, okay, that does not meet the standard, I'll, you know, let it sit, I'll fix it. And you just become…

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Beth McMullen: used to it. It's like anything, right? You're just practicing the craft and getting better. So I think you will find, once your brain gets wrapped around it, you'll find it actually pretty fun.

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Lisa Schmid: as I was writing it yesterday, I'm like, okay, I need to send, like, the first chapter to Beth, because I remember, like, just making sure all my tenses are right, and that it's making sense. And I remember I have written in first person before with, my chapter book series.

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Lisa Schmid: And I remember sending it out, and it had gone through a bunch of people, and for whatever reason, that was the time that the agent

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Lisa Schmid: that I was querying at the time, posted, hashtag query tip, get all your tenses right before you send in a manuscript.

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Lisa Schmid: And it was about me.

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Beth McMullen: That is not cool.

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Lisa Schmid: What she didn't say just specifically was about me. I was like, could that be me? And then it… I immediately got a rejection from her, and then I sent it off to one of my other friends, and she was like, yeah, your tenses are a little, you know, mixed up, and I was like, well, and I think that scared me off from writing in first person from then on. I was like, oh, I'm not doing this.

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Beth McMullen: I think that… that is just harsh.

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Beth McMullen: I don't… I mean, I get that it's probably really frustrating for agents to see…

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Beth McMullen: stuff that they find sort of low bar, like, okay, everybody should be able to do this if they consider themselves a professional writer, but, like…

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Beth McMullen: it's not a good… it doesn't teach the person anything, it just feels mean, and I… I… there's enough mean in publishing. I would really love to see agents refrain from that sort of stuff. Like, if you want to give a general tip, like, hey everybody, general tip, make sure you check your tenses, or your…

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Beth McMullen: Whatever, that's great, but when it feels…

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Beth McMullen: personal and targeted, like, you know it was you, that… that's… That's no good.

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Beth McMullen: I always, whenever I see her pop up on social media, I always make a yuck face. I bet, like, she was mean and hurt your feelings. I don't think there's any.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh my gosh.

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Beth McMullen: Not to make a…

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Lisa Schmid: That's funny.

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Beth McMullen: Let's be honest here. Geez, that's crazy. Well, we're excited. I'm excited for this book. We're not gonna go on about the details, because, you know.

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Beth McMullen: They're… they're secret right now, but this is gonna be fun.

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Beth McMullen: It'll be a couple years.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm calling it now.

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Beth McMullen: about 200 words! Come on, man. That's amazing.

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Lisa Schmid: It was more than 200, and then I scrapped the whole thing. I was like, okay.

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Beth McMullen: This is…

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Lisa Schmid: It wasn't working. So, I'll figure it out.

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Beth McMullen: how, like, this is my… you're, I think, experiencing more of my normal process when I, like, write and write and write and write, because I don't know who the character is, and I can't get my arms around it, and I'm not one of those person… people who can, like…

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Beth McMullen: do sort of a character sketch, and then have it really gel. Like, I need to write the stuff, and then reject it, and write it, and reject it, and write it, and reject it, and then finally it gets to the point where I feel like, okay, now I know who this person is.

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Lisa Schmid: So, this is a really funny story that happened yesterday, and, I had just written, like, this whole thing about,

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Lisa Schmid: just, you know, like, when I'm starting to think about a story, I will write it, like, little notes on just random pieces of paper. And in the kitchen, I just grabbed an envelope, and I wrote, like, you know, the client was having a midlife crisis because her husband had an affair, you know, just something, you know, just was like, okay, go with this, da-da-da. And then, just something basic to, like, spark

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Lisa Schmid: what I was thinking about, and Ollie's like, what is this?

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Beth McMullen: That's actually really funny. He's like.

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Lisa Schmid: writing about?

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Lisa Schmid: I know, what's going on?

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Beth McMullen: You're like, oh, never mind, you don't want to see the messy attic that is my brain. Yeah. So, anyway, just… Alright, well, that's good, that's a good update. I'm excited for this, and of course, we'll continue to bring all of our avid listeners the gritty details as things progress.

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Beth McMullen: You've got.

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Lisa Schmid: Yours, too!

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Beth McMullen: I do, oh my god, I've been whining about revisions on the,

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Beth McMullen: The Waiting Place, which is our private Facebook group for writers. I've been whining about my… I hate revising. I hate it.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm like a…

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Beth McMullen: I'm like a…

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Beth McMullen: teenager, you know, I want to write the first draft and then move on. I don't like to go back and… and this thing I have revised.

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Beth McMullen: a million times. I… I wrote the first draft, and I say that very, sort of, with air quotes, because there was a lot of crazy stuff going on in my personal life, and the first draft came out very,

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Beth McMullen: Messy?

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Beth McMullen: Shall we say… messy, and sort of missing big chunks of… Of writing.

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Beth McMullen: So the revision ended up… has ended up being much more labor-intensive than normally, I experience.

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Beth McMullen: But, it's been to a couple of beta readers who seem very pleased with it, so I am now taking their…

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Beth McMullen: collective feedback and ironing some stuff out. Ironing out some wrinkles is what I'm doing, but it's getting there. It's really dark, it's a dark psychological thriller, and I actually have to say I freaking love it.

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Beth McMullen: it's a little twisted, and a little demented, and it feels very, you know, minus the murder and chaos, it feels very representative of my headspace, right? Like, it's a little crazy.

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Beth McMullen: And… Different from my normal, you know, stuff.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, you're usually so funny and lighthearted. Like, your stuff is always… and so, if I read this now, am I gonna be like, this is Beth McMuller?

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Beth McMullen: It's still funny, it still has humor, but it's darker.

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Beth McMullen: I would say it actually tends more toward… I wrote a book called Happily Ever After under a pseudonym a bunch of years ago, and that was sort of a dark romance, had a lot of dark undertones to it. I think it kind of leans more toward that, but takes it up a level.

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Lisa Schmid: Why did you write it under a pseudonym?

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Beth McMullen: Because I had written mysteries before…

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Beth McMullen: And the publisher wanted to avoid confusion.

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Beth McMullen: And I would not be surprised if I somehow manage to sell this book that it ends up under a pseudonym as well, because it's… I have under my name, I have mysteries, and I have kids' books, and it gets a little bit muddled. Like, people have an expectation that when they buy your book, they're getting a certain thing.

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Beth McMullen: And this is not the norm of my things. Like, literally, my last, what, 7 books have been kids' books, so… Yeah, I mean…

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Lisa Schmid: interesting.

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Beth McMullen: My name, though, is super common, so you could potentially get away with it, but I don't know. That's, like, way farther down the road. I'm still dying in my revisions. Dying, everybody!

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Lisa Schmid: It's interesting about the whole pseudonym thing, because I have… we have a friend, a mutual friend, that has an adult fiction book coming out, and it's her first adult fiction. She's just primarily written kid-lit, and they asked her to write under a different name. So, that is very interesting. Be prepared for your…

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Beth McMullen: Not…

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Lisa Schmid: That's.

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Beth McMullen: It's not uncommon, and then they… they pitch it as a debut.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: And that makes a big difference, which is, you know, its own messed up sort of thing.

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Lisa Schmid: I don't understand that whole big debut thing. Like, to me, it's… I don't sit there and go, oh, it's a debut author. You know, I'm more of like, you know, I've read this person, or it's…

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Lisa Schmid: The publishing world thinks that that's such a big…

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Beth McMullen: I think we'll make a note to talk about that, because there's a lot of stuff involved in why that's attractive to publishers that

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Beth McMullen: Of course, when it was pitched to me to write under a pseudonym, I was like, well, why? And then I remember digging into it and being like, what? So, we'll save that as another topic, because that could take all day. We have other things to talk about today, actually, besides ourselves.

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Lisa Schmid: I know. So what area… okay, so this is something that came up, and I'm sure people have been hearing about it, and if you have published works out there, you know, pay attention to this. There is several, I think, 2 or 3 lawsuits going on that involve copyright issues, and it's AI.

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Lisa Schmid: AI-generated lawsuits, basically. And so, one of the things is that going out and making sure, and we'll provide you a link, to make sure that you're copyrighted, and that you… your publisher has submitted on your behalf. And surprisingly, there are publishers that have not submitted.

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Beth McMullen: What? No, that seems impossible! It's shocking!

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Lisa Schmid: And so, you keep hearing stories about this, and unfortunately, mine have been covered, have been submitted, but I had a good friend of mine called me the other day, and I have to say, when first she texted me, and she's like, are you in an emotionally good place to hear a rant? And I thought.

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Beth McMullen: I love that she prefaced it as if you were gonna be like, no, no, not now.

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Lisa Schmid: I don't know what it says, like, if it was more like a reflection of knowing who I am, or just being kind in general, because she's never prefaced anything like that before, and I'm like, oh my god, what is happening? And I'm like, of course I am. Please feel free to call me. And so,

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Lisa Schmid: She was steaming. If she was a cartoon, she would have steam coming out of her ears and fire coming out of her mouth about this. So her publisher, you know, when she saw that, and she's somebody who, is very fluent with contracts, and that's kind of what she does in her world.

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Lisa Schmid: So she was like, I want to make sure. And so, you know, I'd heard about it, and I'm like, oh, I'll check, you know, whatever. She actually checked for me on mine. But she had checked and found out that they had made a mistake on her copyright.

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Lisa Schmid: And she had 2 books with them, and so she immediately contacted them and said, hey, you've made this mistake, can you please have it corrected?

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Lisa Schmid: And they wrote back and said… and again, this is her publisher, two books, both of them have done well, but one of them has done extremely well and will continue to sell just

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Lisa Schmid: constantly. It's one of those books that does very well. So they just said, you know what, it doesn't affect us.

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Lisa Schmid: So, we're not changing it. But if you want to change it, if you want to make the correction, here's the link to do it, and it's going to cost you $100 for each book.

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Lisa Schmid: I thought she was gonna… as she should, she was so upset, and so she went and paid and had it corrected, and she's not… she will not, obviously, submit to them ever again.

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Lisa Schmid: But she felt disrespected, you know, didn't feel valued, all those things. And then she found out that another one of her friends, who was the same publisher, hadn't

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Lisa Schmid: done… submitted two of her books. And so, this is one of those things that, yes, you would automatically think.

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Lisa Schmid: that, of course, my publisher's going to protect me and us and our product that we have together, but that's not necessarily the case. So go out and make sure that you have been, you know, everything is

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Lisa Schmid: Been taken care of properly.

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Beth McMullen: I have to check mine. We're gonna put the link in the podcast notes, so if you're looking for that link, just visit the notes and it'll be there. I have to check mine, I've just been putting it off. It's like, I don't… I don't know that I can handle more bad news. The crazy thing about her publisher saying, you pay for it, is that the way that this,

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Beth McMullen: This, anthropic one is… is…

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Beth McMullen: supposed to be paid out is that 50% goes to the publisher, and 50% goes to the author. I don't know if that's gonna stick, like, they're arguing about all the stuff, but, like, so…

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Beth McMullen: They want you to pay for the changes that… to something that they should have done correctly in the first place as part of their job.

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Beth McMullen: I don't know, I maybe deduct that from their 50%. Like, why are you paying for them to get money when they cannot be bothered to do their job correctly? It's… it's infuriating, and it's like…

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Beth McMullen: low-hanging fruit. This is not a hard thing. This is…

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Beth McMullen: normal process. Like, you do this with every book you register the copyright, it's not that big a deal, and to, like, just not be bothered to do it. Like, I… I think part of the reason is that… that I'm not looking is that I really think my head's gonna explode.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh, I think…

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Beth McMullen: It's fine that they didn't do it!

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Lisa Schmid: It's a lot!

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Beth McMullen: Think about it.

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Lisa Schmid: That they just brushed her off, like.

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Beth McMullen: Yes!

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Lisa Schmid: You know, it doesn't impact us that we did this one portion wrong. It impacts you, but, you know, oh, too bad. And I just thought, you know, she told me…

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Beth McMullen: And it does impact them. Yeah, it does.

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Lisa Schmid: Of course, I turned around and told 5 people, and those people are gonna tell… turn around and tell 5 people about what this publisher did. I mean, it's just one of those things that's…

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Beth McMullen: reputation, too, and we have talked about this. This is a tiny community. Your reputation is super important, and if you blow it, and somebody ends up trying to decide between you and somebody else, and they know these stories, they've heard these stories, they're definitely giving you the pass, and you deserve it, because you haven't earned

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Beth McMullen: you haven't earned that level of respect. It's a bummer. It's such a bummer, because it is such an easy thing to fix. Yeah, or to do… just do right the first time. That's actually what should be happening.

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Lisa Schmid: do it right, but if somebody comes back to you and says you made a mistake, it's just like, you know, the appropriate response is, I… we see it, we're sorry, we'll correct it, go about your day, and we'll let you know when it's been fixed. And it… just that they didn't do that's, I think, the really disappointing part.

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Beth McMullen: Well, we're living in a world where personal responsibility is in the negative. Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything, even if it is their mistake. Which is, you know, okay, does not bode well for anything, publishing or anything else.

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Lisa Schmid: Speaking of mistakes that you can make in books, this is, a question that came up the other day about what you can and cannot use, what you may and may not use when you're writing a book.

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Lisa Schmid: Trademarks.

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Beth McMullen: Yes.

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Lisa Schmid: Using that, and,

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Lisa Schmid: what you went… the minute, you know, I brought this question up to you, you went out and did your research, so I thought you should touch, like, all the little finer points.

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Beth McMullen: It's actually really interesting, right? Because when you asked the question, when you said this question came in, I was like, oh, I actually have no idea what the parameters are for using things like Starbucks, or Nike, or Gucci, or Prada, or whatever, and…

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Beth McMullen: You know, there's, like, there's some basics…

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Beth McMullen: I thought this was interesting. Trademark law protects brand identity not because the brand cares if your character drinks Coke or wears Nike or whatever.

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Beth McMullen: But they care if readers think that the product somehow is endorsing or sponsoring your book.

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Beth McMullen: So, it's less about you and more about them, I guess. So, just sort of general guidelines, what you can do with these, brands.

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Beth McMullen: And, things like that.

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Beth McMullen: Product mentions are generally fine. Like, he drove a Toyota, she grabbed a Coke, she pulled on her Nikes. That's fine.

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Beth McMullen: you can actually use the actual name if there's no good substitute, too. So if there's a name like Band-Aid that's… that really has become…

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Beth McMullen: really has transcended the actual brand of band-aid, it really means any sort of bandage or plaster that you put on, then that's fine too. They call that nominative fair use. Totally fine.

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Beth McMullen: neutral mentions, like, something that just kind of sets the scene. When I was reading about this, I was thinking about Stephen King a lot, because he will use certain

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Beth McMullen: products to kind of paint a picture. Marlboro cigarettes are a big one from his books, in the past, where you just get an image attached to that word, and so it feels very natural and part of everyday life and not product placement. It's just sort of setting the scene.

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Beth McMullen: you know, if you have somebody drinking a Coke, and it feels like it's just really setting the scene, then that's fine too. If it comes across as…

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Beth McMullen: Product placement, endorsement, if you say Coke gives you cancer, all of that is very bad. And that's actually the big thing that you should avoid, is negative associations. Don't tie a real brand to crime, scandal, disease, whatever.

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Beth McMullen: If that's the case, you want to use something fake. Like, for I…

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Beth McMullen: I was looking for examples, and I saw one that said you wouldn't want your serial killer running a McDonald's franchise in a realistic way, and I was like, okay, that pretty much sums it up.

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Beth McMullen: So you're looking to avoid negative connotations.

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Beth McMullen: That could damage the brand.

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Beth McMullen: So… Overall, I think…

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Beth McMullen: If you use it in a casual, descriptive, non-negative way, you're fine. I think if you want to…

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Beth McMullen: actually have connotations attached to it. Like, if you want this product to be viewed in a particular way, create a fictional stand-in. I do this all the time. So, I had, I think in one of my Mrs. Smith's kids' books, I had to create a social media company, because I wanted the social media company to be

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Beth McMullen: evil, and so I just made it up. And I took things from reality, but there was no way that you could say, oh, this is such and such social media. So I think in certain times, situations, just make it up and save yourself the anxiety.

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Beth McMullen: That's kind of my quick, this is how you use it. I have a lot more information. What I'm gonna do is put it into a cheat sheet, and if you subscribe to our newsletter, you will get that cheat sheet in the next round. Because it is super interesting, there's a lot of nuance to it, but by and large, if you're using the brand name in a non-negative way, it's fine.

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Lisa Schmid: good information, and I think it's just… it's… keep that in mind when you're writing it, and then if there… if your publisher has an issue, they will let you know.

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Lisa Schmid: Thank you.

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Beth McMullen: They err on the side of being too cautious, the publisher, and you can push back, because there is a lot of…

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Beth McMullen: A lot of opportunity for you to use the words, and as long as it's…

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Beth McMullen: it's helping your writing, and it's not just thrown in there as kind of, you know, whatever, it could be anything, but you can push back on that, because it… you are entitled to a level of fair use, and that's fair use. So…

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Lisa Schmid: You know, don't be… My publisher…

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Lisa Schmid: pushed back on a lot with mine, because I had a lot of placement in there, in Heart and Souls, and they came back and were pushing back on a lot. And so there's, like, some of it I stripped out.

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Lisa Schmid: And then some of it I kept in, because, you know, I was like, you know what, this really sets a scene for them. You know, it adds to the story. So, but that.

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Beth McMullen: Right, I mean…

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Beth McMullen: For example, say you're writing about the 1970s, and you mention, Tang, or Tab Soda. Like, that immediately puts you in the historical period that you're talking about.

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Beth McMullen: there's no harm in doing that. You're not saying… unless you're saying, tab soda, it will kill you, then you're not going to be allowed to use it. But if you just say, she opened a tab, then suddenly, in your mind, you're like, okay, she's wearing bell bottoms, and she… you know what I mean? So it brings, like… it brings a sense of the scene.

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Beth McMullen: To the reader, so in that case, it's fine.

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Lisa Schmid: Whatever happened to Tab?

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Beth McMullen: Oh, God, it was disgusting. See, now they're gonna sue us because I just said that. That's a negative connotation, but…

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Lisa Schmid: Whatever happened.

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Beth McMullen: When did they go away? It got replaced by, like, Diet Coke. It got replaced by the aspartame…

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Beth McMullen: Because TAB had saccharin in it, and then aspartame became, like, in the 80s, this sort of, like…

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Beth McMullen: new sweetener that was in everything. We will not get into the negative connotations of aspartame. But it's… Diet Coke came on, and that sort of, like, killed Tub.

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Lisa Schmid: tab was… You can still visualize the cans.

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Beth McMullen: The can was iconic, right? Yeah. And that's, like, if you put it into a scene, people of a certain age are gonna bring all of that stuff to the page without you having to say anything else, in which case that's a good use of…

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Beth McMullen: Of, a product theme.

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Lisa Schmid: I remember, squeezing a lemon in it to make it better, and you're just in case…

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Beth McMullen: Not, like, disgusting.

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Lisa Schmid: What a strange… Oh my god, it was so…

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Beth McMullen: bad. Like, you'd drink it, and you'd be like, why? I should just have a glass of water. Like, this is so gnarly.

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Beth McMullen: Gosh, that's so funny. Oh my gosh.

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Beth McMullen: Alright, so that's our little… that's the educational portion of the podcast, right there.

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Lisa Schmid: It's a lot.

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Beth McMullen: It is a lot. Oh!

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Beth McMullen: We have one more thing that we need to talk about before we head off into the sunset, and that is our first page feedback that we are doing on the show.

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Beth McMullen: Do you want me to talk about that, or do you want to talk about that?

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Lisa Schmid: You can talk about it.

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Beth McMullen: You're like, you go ahead, you do that. I'm gonna go get a… I'm gonna go get a tab, I'll be right back.

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Beth McMullen: It's a lemon. It's a lemon.

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Beth McMullen: First page feedback. I think we have… we have mentioned this briefly, but now we have all the details, and they are available on our WritersWithFrinkles.net website. It's called First Page Details. It's right on the main menu across the top. You just click on it, it's going to bring you to a page with all the details very quickly.

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Beth McMullen: This is a chance for listeners to submit the first page of their work in progress for on-air feedback. It will not be live, of course, because we don't do live shows, but…

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Beth McMullen: We are taking picture books, middle grade, YA, adult fiction, anything that you are up to, up to 350 words. The details of how you submit are in that document.

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Beth McMullen: If you subscribe to our newsletter, you will get all these details in a newsletter coming tomorrow, but again, otherwise you can look on our website and get it there.

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Beth McMullen: What else can we tell? We are focusing on craft, clarity, hook. We are not doing line edits. It is 100% anonymous. Nobody will know that it's yours.

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Beth McMullen: It's not a query service, it is purely for educational purposes. We are not replacing professional editing, blah, blah, blah. Again, anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. I know that the idea of sharing your work with your name attached to a wide audience, like our listeners, is like a heart attack.

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Beth McMullen: I wouldn't want to do that either.

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Beth McMullen: But we'd love to see your pages, we love first pages. It's actually super fun to do.

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Lisa Schmid: I love first pages. Oh my god, first pages are the best.

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Beth McMullen: They are! They are. So please, go and look for that document with all the details, first page.

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Beth McMullen: Details on our website, writerswithwrinkles.net, read it, submit, so on and so forth. And then we're gonna… we're hopefully gonna be able to do this in our next

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Beth McMullen: Probably either the next episode or the one following that.

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Lisa Schmid: Yes, and then one of the things I'm excited about, and then we'll be talking about this in the coming months, is you and I are going on a retreat. I've got air quotes going.

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Beth McMullen: I mean, I hate air quotes, it's a real retreat!

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Lisa Schmid: No. So we are going away for a couple days to scout out our, riders with Wrinkles and wine retreat,

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Lisa Schmid: So we're… we've… I think we've identified our location, but we are going to stay there for a couple days to look at the surrounding area, look at the hotel, then…

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Beth McMullen: We are doing research! I did do air quotes for that.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, you know what, and we're gonna take pictures, from where we're at to give you guys little hints. Can I… I want to drop one hint, because I… but I feel like it's a big one.

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Beth McMullen: Okay. Should I do it?

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Beth McMullen: Go ahead.

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Beth McMullen: to the giveaway, I'll just cut it out in editing.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh my god, okay, true. So, one of the things when I was looking for this place, I feel like it's too big of a hint, but I'm gonna just drop it anyway.

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Beth McMullen: drop it.

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Lisa Schmid: is, the… the room that I'm looking at booking is called the Mark Twain Room.

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Beth McMullen: I love that.

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Lisa Schmid: That's too much.

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Beth McMullen: of a giveaway. There's lots of Mark Twain rooms around, but, like, how fitting is that? That's, like… I saw that.

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Lisa Schmid: And I am, like, all… you know me, I'm all about signs. I was like, that's a sign right there.

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Beth McMullen: And this is gonna be fun, like, this is a low-pressure situation. This is about community building and working on craft a little bit. We're gonna have some smart people there to talk to you, but it's, like, no pressure. It's really just about…

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Beth McMullen: Hanging out with people who speak your language, because we all know that when we try to describe writing and publishing to people outside the business, like any business, they're like, what are you even talking about?

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Beth McMullen: So it's nice to hang out with people who you don't have to explain yourself to, they get it, they understand, and I think that's, like…

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Beth McMullen: refreshing, rejuvenating, fun, invigorating, all of those things. I love doing that. So, hopefully, we're gonna be hitting you up with the details about this in the next coming months, so hopefully you guys will sign up and join us, because I think it's gonna be really fun.

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Lisa Schmid: Now, what I always think about is when… and that's why it is so nice going to these retreats, because I think everybody who has, a partner or spouse or whatever, a significant other, when you're, like, going through the process of, you know, writing or publishing.

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Lisa Schmid: I… I can even imagine, like, every… the look on every face of your spouse, partner, whatever, when they hear about stuff that goes on, they all just look at you, like, you know how, like, when a dog smells something, and they get that funny face, and they turn to their side, like, what? They cock their heads.

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Beth McMullen: Oh my god, that's so true.

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Lisa Schmid: you know, my husband would just look at me and, like, why? Why are you doing this? And I know that that happens, like, across the board, because people are so astonished by what goes on in this crazy industry we've decided to immerse ourselves in.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, it's really… it's really nice to just be with people who get it. So, I mean, that's why I've been whining so much in the waiting room, because I'm like, if I whine to people that, like, my friends outside of publishing, they just are like, what's your problem? Like, this is your job, why don't you just shut up and go do it?

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Lisa Schmid: Just shut up. Move along.

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Beth McMullen: Move along, please, nothing to see here. Okay, this is, like, I think this is all we got for today, right?

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Lisa Schmid: It's alright.

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Beth McMullen: So…

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Beth McMullen: That's a lot. I know we covered a lot. I hope you guys aren't overwhelmed. Please don't be overwhelmed. I hate feeling overwhelmed. But, let me say, our next guest will be literary agent Leslie Zampetti, who is our first, and thus far only, repeat guest.

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Beth McMullen: She was on, I think, at the very beginning of the show, and she's coming back.

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Beth McMullen: to talk about agent-client relationships, and what makes them successful, and what should be considered a red flag. I think this is super important stuff. In our opinion, you need to know this, especially if you're in the query trenches, so please join us for that one. It's a really great… it's a really great episode.

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Beth McMullen: Please remember, as always, to leave a review for the show. We really need those reviews, it helps us a lot. Sign up for our newsletter at our website, writerswithrinkles.net.

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Beth McMullen: And again, leave a review, leave a review. There are many different places. Anywhere you listen to the pod will give you an opportunity to review, so please do that.

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Beth McMullen: Anything else? Am I forgetting anything?

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Lisa Schmid: No?

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Beth McMullen: Alright then, we're good. So, until next time, dear listeners, happy reading, writing, and listening. Bye, Lisa!

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Lisa Schmid: Bye, Beth, bye guys.