BONUS: How to Write Funny Books With Heart: Adam Rosenbaum on Middle Grade Craft

In this bonus episode of Writers With Wrinkles, Beth and Lisa talk with Adam Rosenbaum about how he blends laugh-out-loud comedy with emotionally meaningful storytelling. Writers will learn how humor lowers a reader’s defenses, why kids crave funny books, and how to handle heavy topics without overwhelming young readers.

Guest Bio

Adam Rosenbaum is the author of The Ghost Rules and the upcoming illustrated series Lawson History Stumbling Through Time (Sourcebooks, 2027). A former sawmill operator and draftsman, he now writes heartfelt, funny middle grade fiction in Nashville, where he lives with his family.
Instagram: @rosenbaumwrites

Key Discussion Points

• Why humor helps kids engage with challenging themes
• How Amblin-era storytelling shaped Adam’s voice
• Writing comedy without talking down to readers
• Letting humor open space for grief, empathy, and emotional truth
• “Backpack books”: the titles kids reread and carry everywhere
• Handling heavy topics with care and clarity
• Adam’s upcoming time-travel adventure series

Conclusion

Adam reminds writers that humor isn’t a lesser art—it’s a bridge. When paired with heart and honesty, it helps kids navigate big feelings while keeping them invested in the story.

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Transcript

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Adam Rosenbaum Transcript

BETH MCMULLEN

Hi, friends. I'm Beth McMullen. And I'm Lisa Schmidt. And we're the co -hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is a special bonus episode, and honestly, these are some of our favorites to record. We love talking with authors who've mastered a specific piece of writing craft and are then generous enough to come on the show and share with us what they've learned. Today's guest is Adam Rosenbaum, and his superpower is telling hard stories with humor. Adam has operated a sawmill in Kentucky, stocked grocery shelves in Los Angeles, and worked as a student draftsman for a power company. He grew up in the suburbs of Nashville, where he still lives with his wife and kids. When he's not writing or reading, you'll probably find him running down a trail or searching for the perfect blueberry donut. So welcome, Adam. We are super excited to have you here today with us.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I have been a fan of your podcast for so long. Like the summer before my book came out last year, writer friend was like, oh, you got to check out this podcast. And I was like, OK, you know, like there's so many writing podcasts. And like halfway through the first episode I listened to, I was like, all right, subscribe. Like I'm all in. So I this is such an honor that you would have me on. Thank you.

BETH MCMULLEN

We love that. We love people who are like, we're going to subscribe to this right now. That's perfect. I also want. Oh, go ahead. How long ago was that? Because I'm wondering what episodes, because our episodes were pretty wonky in the beginning.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Hey, I loved them. It was the summer of 24, so like two summers ago. It was like around there. We were getting our group by then.

BETH MCMULLEN

We were getting our group by then. I mean, yeah, our original episodes. But, you know, we had no idea, and we still occasionally don't, what we were doing. So I give us credit for just trying. Yeah. Right?

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Well, I love it. I'm a fan.

BETH MCMULLEN

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we are very happy that you came on today. So I have to give a little background. I don't know how I found you. Like, I know that you found us, but I'm not really sure. You must have come across my feed or something. And I saw your book, your debut novel, The Ghost Rules, which I will tell everyone, I think I've talked about it in the show. I've talked about it extensively with Beth. It is my favorite middle grade of this. of 2025. And you came out this year, right? Last year, 24. Okay. Okay.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Last year, 24. Okay. Okay.

BETH MCMULLEN

So it's my favorite middle grade of 2024 and 2025. I talk about your book all the time. And the reason it's just, it's so interesting with middle grade. I feel like I get, this is kind of my soapbox. I feel like books like yours don't get the attention they deserve. You see all these award winners and their great, you know, literary masterpieces and their wonderful books. But I also like, where's the space for a book like yours that, you know, makes a person like I felt all the feels like I laughed out loud. I would call Beth and read lines from your book and I read them because I was laughing so hard. I mean, and they're so funny. There's like the ones with the dogs. Oh, my God. I can't even like everyone's got to read this book because it is so funny. But it's also so like. heart -wrenching like I remember reading at the end just tears like streaming down my face so that's I was like we have to get Adam on because he can talk about like how did you do this like it's such a a fine kind of you know balance of of writing grief with humor well first off thank you so much I feel like you have just been so kind to me and to my debut book as y 'all know especially for

ADAM ROSENBAUM

talk about

ADAM ROSENBAUM

first off thank you so much I feel like you have just been so kind to me and to my debut book as y 'all know especially for Dave, the author's the hardest thing is just educating the world that this book even exists. And I tell people all the time, you just you've got to have a champion, whether that's a bookseller or a librarian or a really great kid that's a reader and is out there telling people. And you have been such a champion for me. And I'm very grateful. So thank you for all the nice words.

BETH MCMULLEN

You're welcome. It's well deserved. But before we jump into your. the questions we have for you. You also have a new project you're working on and I am super stoked about it and I would love for people to hear about it.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yes, I'm very excited too. It's a middle grade series. Right now it's two books. Hopefully there will be many more. We'll see. It's called, right now it's called Lawson History, Stumbling Through Time. So it's about this boy named Lawson History that gets stuck in the past. In each book, he gets stuck in a different era. And so book one, he accidentally time travels back to ancient Egypt. Book two, ancient Greece and on and on and on, hopefully. And so it's I'm doing it with this unbelievable partner. His name's Matthew Reinhardt. He makes like the the high end pop up books like Stranger Things and Star Wars and like any any big like Harry Potter, the big pop up books you've seen. He's probably done them, but he's also an illustrator. And so our series is not pop up, but it's going to have illustrations on every single page, which is so exciting to me. He's such a good illustrator and he's writing it with me. And he's been calling the series hysterical and historical. We'll have like lots of historical stuff for kids to like really dig into, but also just a fun adventure. So I'm really excited about it. We got to wait a little bit. It comes out in 2027 at this point. But I think it's going to be a lot of fun.

BETH MCMULLEN

So I'm going to call it right now. And I've like called this before and I have been right. I had a friend who I talk about all the time. She went on sub and I'm like, it's going to auction. And it did. And so I think that there's been a couple others. I'm like, it's going to sell. It's going to sell. I'm calling it right now. This is going to make the New York Times bestseller.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Oh, my goodness.

BETH MCMULLEN

I mean, it's just the concept is so catchy. The name's so catchy. Mark my words on this day, November 11th, 2025.

BETH MCMULLEN

And then you can come back and say, you're right.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. What happens if you're wrong, though? Whatever.

BETH MCMULLEN

It never happened. Water under the bridge. We are not going to get into the things that she said were going to happen that didn't happen. Don't even go there. We are not going to go there because this is a family show. We'll talk about it all. Oh, my goodness. This sounds really exciting. Like, I think there's, like, lots of space for that history in sort of a, you know, through kind of a fun lens where you're getting some of the stuff that's then going to make you excited to go deeper into whatever your end is that you are exploring. So that I'm excited to read. And I, like, don't read middle grade, really. anymore at all but sign me up i will be there ready to read okay so we we have this topic that i think is actually a really good one and very interesting and i'm excited to get into this with you because as lisa has pointed out to me many times and said already you are very very good at this many many middle grade books lean strongly on really heavy topics like they're they're getting into some weighty stuff while others will focus just on humor like it'll be described as a funny book so why did you decide to tackle that in between space were you really hitting on both i'd love to say that it was intentional like i had an intentional plan i didn't really i just i think that's how my brain works i grew up

ADAM ROSENBAUM

love to say that it was intentional like i had an intentional plan i didn't really i just i think that's how my brain works i grew up In the 80s on the Amblin movies like E .T. and The Goonies and Back to the Future and Flight of the Navigator in these movies that were so fun and so funny, but like really heavy. Like when you go back and especially as an adult, when I go back and watch E .T., I'm like, this is this is a boy going like his parents divorce. And it is really heavy, but so fun. And I think I think that style of storytelling just got ingrained on my head, maybe. on my brain. And that's just how I, that's what I'm attracted to as a reader, especially with middle grade books. I love, I love that there are so much more variety of middle grade books than when I was growing up. So much more diversity, so many more kinds of stories, which is wonderful because there are stories for the kids that want the really heavy stuff. And then there are stories for like my 10 year old who he will read everything. But he secretly every night will reread Big Nate and Diary of a Wimpy Kid just over and over and over again. He'll slip him into his backpack, read him at school. And so I love that there is that available too. But I just find myself attracted to that middle ground where I can be silly and funny and tell a story that's an adventure and really fun, but also kind of dig into some heavy stuff.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. And that's I think that's something that you did really well. And I don't I know that you've referenced some movies, but I'm wondering, are there any books that you really kind of use those? Because I know personally, I read books and and, you know, make notes in the side and highlight stuff and check out pacing. And that's one of the things I was when I was reading your book. I mean, there's highlights and notes all over your book. That's amazing. Well, it was just how you mix things in. And I wonder if you do anything that's similar to that where you've read books, you've analyzed them, or if there's any books that influenced you that really kind of gave you a feel for like, this is something I'd like to do.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

amazing. Well,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah, for sure. I'm definitely a movie guy. And so I think movies are kind of like whenever I'm thinking of structure or whatever, like when I started writing this new book. And immediately I was like, oh, it's like this movie, whatever. And it's easy for me to drop the structure of a movie on. But there have been so many influential books too. And some of them, I don't know if y 'all are like this, but some books that I know that I loved as a kid. And I'll go back and I'll reread like in the last few years. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I took so much from that book. You know, whether it was like the theme or the sense of humor. Like I've always told people. The Phantom Tollbooth was one of my favorite books. I just I have such great memories of it. I loved it. And I just reread it. And I was like floored. I was like, oh, my gosh, like the sense of humor, like the sarcastic wit in this book. I was like, man, I wonder if that got implanted on my brain somehow. So I think that absolutely was was an influence. Like as a kid these days, I just discovered I know he's been around forever. Well, he's not around anymore. Terry Pratchett. has written so many books and I I've heard about him forever and just started reading him last year and just absolutely fell in love with just his stories and his sense of humor. And he has what I also, I'm a big Coen brothers fan, the movies that they make. And I think they're like masters of what I call confident idiots. And I think that Terry Pratchett is also really good at writing. or was really good at writing confident idiots. And they, I just, I'm so attracted to like, you know, these people that are not very smart, but they're really confident and they have a lot of heart and that that's appealing to me. So I think these days, Terry Pratchett is one of those where I'll be reading it and I'll be laughing out loud and I will absolutely like dog ear a page and say like, I got to come back to, to this and see how he set that up and see how he did it.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. I feel like some of those, when you said the Amblin movies, I feel like they imprinted on me as well. I also felt like when I first started writing everything that I was writing, I was like, well, that sounds like Indiana Jones dialogue. Like everything. I mean, I think, again, that's part of the process is to take all these, you know. these bits and pieces and then like when you have that moment that your authentic voice rises out of that it feels so such like a breakthrough almost cathartic like i've take i've made this crazy stew and now i have had this moment where i'm rising out of it and it it's it's working that is that is absolute that's a really great way to describe it because i would

ADAM ROSENBAUM

now i

ADAM ROSENBAUM

is that is absolute that's a really great way to describe it because i would For years and years and years, I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to do screenwriting for a long time. And then I just listen to podcasts and go to interviews and like conferences and all this stuff. And I would hear writers and agents talk about like your voice, like, oh, you got to find your voice, whatever. And I would be so angry. Be like, what are you talking about? Like, what is a voice? Like, it's so frustrating. I have a voice.

BETH MCMULLEN

a voice. I'm talking to you right now.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

you right now. I know. It's just like, what does that even mean? And then one day I was writing. Like I started writing something new and, and I wasn't thinking about it and it just poured out of me and I got three pages in and I just was like, oh, like that's my voice. And it, you know, looking, I'm sure if I went back and read it, I would be like, that's terrible. But there was something about it, just like this kind of sarcastic wit that like these kind of bumbling characters that also had a lot of heart and, and all of that came out in just a few pages. And I just was like, oh. That's that's me. Like, that's what I want to write. And it just kind of came out of nowhere. So I don't know. I don't know how to tell people what to you know, how to do that. But but I think it's just it's work,

BETH MCMULLEN

it's work, too. I mean, it's it's doing the work to get from point A to point B,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

I mean, it's

BETH MCMULLEN

doing the work to get from point A to point B, point B being when your voice actually comes into its own. So I think it's. You know, it's hard to explain to people because it does feel very ambiguous on the surface. But when you know it, when you have it, you know it.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I just and what you said is exactly right. Like you just have to put in the work. You just got to write a lot until you find it.

BETH MCMULLEN

OK, so this is the point in the show when I insert a Taylor Swift moment. When you know,

BETH MCMULLEN

when you know, when you don't, you don't. What song is that from? Is it from? Is it Ophelia? No, it's not. No, it's the Opalite. Yeah. Oh, my God. Love that. How did I get that? Sorry, a Taylor Swift moment.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

a Taylor

BETH MCMULLEN

How did I get that? I'm getting pressure all of a sudden. But that's such a good thing to, like, go listen to that song and think about the voice. Because when you are at those conferences and you're brand new to those conferences and there's editors and agents up there being very, you know. You know, they're like, oh, the voice. We look for the voice. And same thing. I'm in the ground, you know, in the audience going, OK, what's the voice? Like, I'm like nudging people. What's the voice? What does she mean? Yeah. And then you're like, if I'm hearing voices in my head, most of the time they think that's a bad thing. Why are they telling me that I should be? It's very complicated. So moving on to another question, why does humor work when trying to get kids to read? I know it works for me as an adult reader. I always gravitate toward funny books, but they are sometimes looked down on a little bit, I think. I think people are not, a lot of times it's hard to find, you know, a book that's humorous that is also taken seriously in a way.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah, totally. And it's a shame. Going back to movies, it's the same thing. Like you rarely see a comedy nominated for a lot of awards at the end of the year, which is a bummer. But for me, my experience with kids and reading is that there are going to be some kids. I have a couple in my house that are always going to be readers. They're going to read everything. They like to like dig into stuff. They like to be challenged. So there's always going to be those kids. And I think it's amazing that there are so many books for those kids. But I think there's a lot of kids that are just intimidated. They're kind of nervous to read. Maybe they're not a great reader, especially these days with the kids that were going through COVID as like preschoolers and kindergartners. And they're just a little bit behind and they're just intimidated. And a big book is a little bit scary. And then, of course, there's the screen battle that everyone is always battling at home. And so I think there's something about humor that just lowers defenses. It makes it a little easier, like a little more accessible in a way for a lot of kids I've found. And whether that's Big Nate or Diary of a Wimpy Kid or other books, much longer books that just have humor mixed in. I think if kids can laugh at something, they're going to lower their defenses a little bit and they're going to go a little bit further. And if they can keep laughing, I have found, if they can keep laughing for an entire book, then... you can really start to work in some other stuff, some really meaningful things, whether that's like my book, talking about grief and how kids deal with grief or, you know, whatever it is that an author wants to work in. If you can make kids laugh here or there, I have found that they'll go a little bit further and lower those defenses, like I was saying.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah, it's almost like it releases the pressure. Right. Like if you're reading something that's very difficult or weighty or heavy, and it's almost like you need to take a breath, you need to look away, you need to kind of equalize. And the humor does that. So you're willing to stay with the book as opposed to just abandoning it. Plus, I mean, laughing, those good endorphins, like you feel good and then you associate those good feelings with the book. It's like reading gold. I am always shocked at how little humor is out there, adults and kids, for reading, which is a bummer.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

I don't know if y 'all have seen this with your kids or other kids, but the lines and the pages that my kids through the years will bring up to me and be like, Dad, check this out. It's a line from a book that made them laugh. Those are the ones they want to share. are the funny lines and we will read all sorts of stuff together but the ones that they will like come running across the house and like oh check this out can i read this to you it's the things that made them laugh i feel like this is like there's always conversations around horror about how and if i agree with it about you know everything's horror right now and it gives you know kids they're in this scary space but then they can close the book up and they have control and i agree with that like it's all so important

BETH MCMULLEN

feel like this is like there's always conversations around horror about how and if i agree with it about you know everything's horror right now and it gives you know kids they're in this scary space but then they can close the book up and they have control and i agree with that like it's all so important But equally important is giving kids a space where they feel, like you said, their defenses are down and they can laugh. And then you slide those things in and that's not discussed enough. And I feel it's frustrating because you have all the librarians and all the book people that are making all these decisions for kids. And kids want to laugh, but they're not positioning or presenting. They're so... They just move away from it for whatever reason. Humor never gets the recognition I think it deserves. And I've read things where people say, like in acting, that it's so much harder to do comedy than it is to do drama. You hear actors say that all the time. And being able to make kids laugh, because you have to balance the fact that you're an adult, but you have to think like a kid. And you can't be so obvious that you're throwing out fart jokes every... You know, every other page, which P .S., they're funny and you can work them in every once in a while. And I think you've done a fart joke and it was funny. But I mean, I think it's just there's such a nuance to making kids laugh and such a skill. Like it is so hard to make kids laugh. And when somebody tells me that I made them laugh, I'm like, oh, my God,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

know,

BETH MCMULLEN

that's the best thing in the world.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

the best thing in the world.

BETH MCMULLEN

And so as much as I laughed with your book, I'm like, this is a gift. I, I've talked about it. It pissed me off that you didn't get any awards.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Well, thank you. I told my agent,

BETH MCMULLEN

I told my agent, we were talking the other day and I'm like, how did Rosenbaum should have gotten an award?

ADAM ROSENBAUM

were talking

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I, I mean, you're exactly right. Like when, when, when someone comes up, whether it's, I mean, especially when it's a kid, but like I have parents and teachers like coming up and saying like, oh my gosh, I laugh so much. Like, that's just the best for me because. I don't, I don't necessarily know. I don't know how to make kids laugh necessarily. Like, I don't know. I don't always know like what's funny for a kid. I just know what I think is funny. And maybe that just speaks to my sensibility as a human adult that I'm stuck in like a 12 year old's, you know, brain is stuck in my body. But I, that's like what I'm attracted to. So when I'm writing. I'm just trying to make myself laugh. And if I can have a line that, you know, we are rereading these books hundreds of times. And if I can have a line that makes me laugh, you know, after the 25th read, then I'm like, there's something there. Like, I think that's going to make somebody else laugh. So at the end of the day, I wish I understood like the secret sauce to making kids laugh. But I think I'm just, I just want to entertain myself. And luckily that has translated a little bit, I think.

BETH MCMULLEN

I think you nailed it in the sense that it's funny. It's like the next question is how do you figure out what's funny for middle grade readers? And the answer is right there. It's you're not talking down to them. You're not going to like go down to it.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

not going to

BETH MCMULLEN

to like go down to it. You know, somebody thinks their level is because so many times you'll read a book and you're like, oh, my God, this is. Yeah. It just feels awkward and it doesn't feel authentic.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. It

BETH MCMULLEN

And so you're not talking down to them. You're like meeting them where you're at. And that's that's what that's where they want to be. Like every kid wants to be like,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

kid wants

BETH MCMULLEN

you know, seen eye to eye and not talk down. Totally.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Totally. Well, all of us do. I think I think I think anyone at any like that was a really important lesson for me is is how important it is just for me as an adult to be seen and to have books or movies or music like speaking to me at my level. And and you're exactly right. There's just there's so many. It's wild. How many books are published? Middle grade books that I will start and I will just be like, why do they hate kids so much? Like like you just you're just like, why are they talking down to the kids like it? I don't I don't get it. And I guess it's it works for some people. But for me, I'm just like. I have I have seen in my kids and when I was a reader and. elementary and middle school like i just longed for the books that were not speaking down to me the phantom toll booth is a great example like that is it's so witty and sarcastic and there's stuff that like i don't even understand now but but it is it's so fun and it feels like you're like in on this secret and kind of and it and it makes me just want to even as an adult just keep reading keep reading and that's that's what i was so drawn to as a kid too yeah

BETH MCMULLEN

There was a I think it was a survey. It might have been a librarian who did it. This was recent about I think it was surveying kids and asking them what they want to read. They want to read funny books.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Right.

BETH MCMULLEN

Books with humor because of course they do. Right. I mean, that does not mean there's not space for all of it. Exactly.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. Yeah. Because, again, like there are kids that. that want to read straight up action. And there are kids that want to read like period drama or whatever, whatever it is. Like there are kids that want to read all this different, all these different things. But, but what I, I do a lot of school visits and it's the most fun thing in the world. And when you go to these school visits, I always ask kids like, okay, tell me what you're reading. Tell me what your favorite books are. And the majority of them are always like humor books. So I don't know that it'll always be this way. Maybe in a few years it'll shift and and kids will want to read more serious stuff or they'll want to read action books or maybe it'll be like all horror books. But right now what I'm finding, at least when I'm doing these school visits, are just the kids that are interested in humor. And and I think that's I think we should lean into that a little bit right now.

BETH MCMULLEN

I know, especially with. literacy rates kind of plummeting and kids are distracted by their phones and other media and whatnot.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

are distracted

BETH MCMULLEN

And that's not to say to lean into it.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

that's not to say to lean into it. Totally. And that's not to say that we should neglect the serious stuff because like we've been saying, the stuff that I'm drawn to, the stuff that I write is, it's funny, but it also layers in some other stuff too. So I don't think we need to like give up on messages or dealing with heavy stuff. I just think we shouldn't automatically dismiss these funny books because kids are really drawn to.

BETH MCMULLEN

I feel like we're, you remember Rodney Dangerfield?

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah.

BETH MCMULLEN

He's like, this is like showing my age. He was from years ago. He was this crazy comedian. And he would always say, I get no respect. I get no respect. And I just, I feel like that's kind of how books that are humorous. They're kind of like poo -pooed off to the side, unless you're, you know, Diary of a Wimpy Kid or, you know, some phenom like that. But you're just kind of brushed off because it doesn't feel like it's weighty enough for librarians to sit up and take notice or, you know, the buyers to sit up and take notice. And so that has always been frustrating for me when I see a book that I've like read that I'm like, that was a flat line for me. And yet that's what everyone's pushing. And that's what's, you know, at the top of everything. And I just like, well, you know, I felt nothing. Why? Why is that book getting that attention? Yeah. And a book like this that made me laugh and cry. And, you know, I had such it was so poignant that I'm like,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah.

BETH MCMULLEN

I'm like, why isn't that book getting attention? And that's like me just getting on my soapbox because I do that all the time. Usually it's not on his phone.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

No, I'm happy. I'm happy for you to be on a soapbox if it's promoting the ghost rules anytime. No, I wish I don't know. Like, I just I know that there are so many things I don't understand about the business. I know there are so many big picture financial things that that I just don't get. And and I fully accept that. But but I'm with you. Sometimes I see the books that are pushed and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But but then there are books that are pushed. that I never would have explored on my own that I only stumble on because, you know, it was a Barnes and Noble pick or it was pushed by whatever. And I'm like, all right, I'll check it out. And then it's amazing. So I don't know. I have a lot of different experiences, but I am a little baffled sometimes by some of those books that seem to get the most. wait behind them and then i read them and i'm just like who is this for like what what is this yeah it's for the adult acquiring the book i think i think there's a little bit of a a disconnect too because so my kids are 18 and almost 21 now and what they enjoyed reading when they were little was like the silly funny ridiculous stuff yeah and one of the things that i

BETH MCMULLEN

it's for the adult acquiring the book i think i think there's a little bit of a a disconnect too because so my kids are 18 and almost 21 now and what they enjoyed reading when they were little was like the silly funny ridiculous stuff yeah and one of the things that i learned writing my various middle grade series is some of it is how you present the genre right so i never described my books as humor they were all funny i thought other people thought so you know funny enough let's say yeah but i always position them as something else they were action adventure or they were contemporary or they were but it was like It's almost like you have to subversively present the humor so that it doesn't become what the conversation is about. Like we are talking about action adventure, which kids love. So genre, we don't have a problem. Yeah, it's funny, but that's kind of a secondary characteristic. Which is like a little frustrating. Totally. And yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

I've bumped into that both ways because I have some like, I'm describing my book to a group of kids and their parents are there. And I'm like, oh, you know, it's about these really funny ghosts and they drool and they like coffee. And and I can see some parents just be like, oh, and I want to be like, no, no, no. It also deals with grief. And like there's some heavy stuff. And then on the other side, like I'll be talking about my book and I'll be like, yeah, it's about this boy and his brother died and he's like dealing with it. And then I see some people, you know, some kids be like, I don't want to I don't want to do like a heavy book. And I want to be like, no, it's funny. But one thing. You were saying like how to position it. So my series that I'm working on now that I told you about is Sourcebooks. And my editor the other day was describing a lot of the books that he does and he called them backpack books. And he was like, we want to make backpack books. And I was like, yes, like that's it. Like that's what I want to do. I want to write backpack books, the books that my kids, I will see them. So I have four kids and the younger two are 10 and eight. And I will see what they like sneak into their backpack when they don't think anybody's paying attention. That's what they take to school that they'll read. And my younger one will like slip in, you know, like some some picture books. My older one is slipping in Big Nate or whatever. But like these are the books that they treasure, that they want to read on the bus, that they want to read in the car. They want to read at school during like the quiet reading time. And and those are the books that the kids treasure that they that they read again and again and again. And I just I love that phrase backpack books. And that's I think that's what I want to be about.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah, I love that, too. These are the book. Those are the kids who are like sitting in class and there's a really boring lesson going on and their heads are down and reading in their lap. And then they get like, OK, that was me. I was like, what are you doing?

ADAM ROSENBAUM

that was me. I was like, what

BETH MCMULLEN

are you doing? Because we know it's not math. And I was like, I don't like math, but this book is awesome.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yep, that's me. That was me for sure.

BETH MCMULLEN

So thinking about doing kind of this mix of humor and more heavy topics, how do you know what kids are capable of handling content -wise? Like how heavy is too heavy in your experience?

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Totally. I think that kids are capable of reading and dealing with way more than we think they are. I think back to me as a kid. I think back to my kids growing up. I think that kids are dealing with so much and it's so different. And I talk to kids all the time and I'm like, my book is about grief because the main character's older brother died. But like sometimes for kids, their grief is they did really bad on a test. And sometimes it's like my dad left. And and like there are all you know, there's a huge range of emotions, but but kids are dealing with loss and they're dealing with heavy stuff all the time. And I think when we as adults and we as authors ignore that, then we're doing them a disservice. One, because we're not talking about the things they're dealing with, but they also aren't able to be seen. And I think as a kid, when I was. When I was reading something that was really heavy and and thinking back to the things that I was going through as a early middle schooler, like it just it helped so much to know, like, oh, like there are there are these characters that are that are dealing with this. And maybe it's not a conscious thing that a lot of kids are consciously recognizing, but I do think it matters so much. I don't ultimately, this is going to be a cop out answer. I don't know. I don't know like how much is too much when you're describing things and the stuff you're dealing with. But I do know that kids are capable of handling really heavy topics. And maybe it's just like how we go about describing them. But I think kids are capable of learning about and reading really heavy stuff. And hopefully there are. teachers and librarians and parents that are able to kind of scope out some of that and and if their kid is to my 10 year old is he can't handle really scary stuff right now and so we just know like okay like we're gonna put these books on the shelf for a little bit and we'll come back to them in a couple of years and that's okay so i don't i don't know like how How much is too much, but I do know that we shouldn't shy away from the topics. I think maybe it's just in how we describe them and how we deal with them in our books.

BETH MCMULLEN

I thought you did a really good job. I was, you know, as I was reading your book, I knew that I was going to have to, you know, learn more about what happened to the brother. And this scene that you described, it's not lighthearted. Yeah. But the way you slid it in and it wasn't, it didn't feel like a punch in the gut. It just felt like so just a part of the story that you know is coming because you've set it up so that it's not like it's not somebody, you're not slapping the kid across the face like, boom, this is what happened. It's like we all know what's coming at some point. And you lay the groundwork enough so that it's like later on in the story. And I thought you did it really well. Thank you.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

point.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Thank you.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. Yeah, that was, that was a, that was a hard one to write. And also I wrote it in one sitting. I wrote that scene, that, that chapter in one sitting in like 30 minutes. And what was, what was weird about it is that, so I wrote, I wrote the entirety of the first draft of the ghost rules during 2020. Most of it sitting on my back porch when we were locked inside and my kids were being crazy and I would put the kids to bed and go out on the back porch. And right at night and one night I was sitting there and I had written the first however many chapters. And I just sat there and I was like, I think I need to deal with Noah because the main character Elwood, his older brother Noah dies. And you find out right away in the first chapter that he has been dead, but he doesn't really talk about how he dies. And so I'm just sitting there and I'm thinking to myself, like, I think I need to write about, you know, what happened. And so I just start typing like. I guess it's time to tell you what happened to my brother Noah. And so the first couple paragraphs of that chapter are me just putting out on page, I guess it's time to deal with this now. I don't really know what to say.

BETH MCMULLEN

How he was going to die? Yeah, I did. Because that was a very creative way. I mean, that's not what I expected. That was interesting.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah, I did.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

I really wanted, I'll let your listeners, hopefully they'll. They'll find the ghost rules. I don't want to ruin anything. But it is like a it was really important to me that that his brother didn't die like in a car accident or like of a disease or something, because I do feel like that could have hit too close to home for some kids. And and what actually does happen in the book is something that happened in my community when I was in high school, kind of similar. And it just has always stuck out to me, like all this really tragic thing. And so I thought, like, that might be a good way to do this, is something that is not going to be too close to the majority of kids who have dealt with loss before. So I did know that I was going to get there. I just didn't know quite how I was going to get to that point. So that was a little bit of an exploration for me. But it was a hard chapter to write. I don't know that it changed a lot from the first time I sat down to write it because it just kind of it exploded out of me. I guess I was like maybe it had been pin up for a while and I just like needed to release. I don't know.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. Well, you've probably been it's been percolating throughout the whole draft of the book, right? Yeah. You're thinking, I know I'm getting to this scene. I know this is going to be hard to write. Yeah. So you've processed a lot of that stuff.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah. So you've

BETH MCMULLEN

I think. A lot of what you're saying feels like to me that in these heavier topics, of course, you're using the humor, which can help kids make it through these books, get the bigger lessons without becoming overwhelmed, gives them that little release valve. But also there's like the truth of the empathy and these emotions and these feelings are by thinking that children don't have them. I mean, that isn't. That is a huge example of talking down to a kid, assuming that they don't have the capacity to feel and experience these sorts of things. For instance, grief. I mean, people die all the time. It happens to kids all the time. It's not to pretend that they don't have the bandwidth for this sort of emotional experience is just disingenuous and not fair to the readers. So, I mean, I think. It sounds like you do such a good job of being true to the empathy that exists for adults, that exists for kids, that it's out there in this form and it translates onto the page. So they get that feeling of being not alone. They're seeing it happening to this person on the page. I can relate.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

I can relate.

BETH MCMULLEN

can relate. I can understand. It just makes you feel less alone.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

That's it. I mean, you said it perfectly. It makes you feel less alone. Like that's that's who I want to be as an author. And that's what I'm always looking for as a reader and as a consumer. Like I just I want to feel less alone. Like I want to I want to feel something. Lisa, you were talking earlier about those books where you just felt nothing. And it's such a disappointment to like to have high expectations. And you go in and you and you read a book and you're just like, I felt nothing like I want like I'm cheering on. authors, when I open a book, I'm like, I can't wait. Like I'm cheering them on. I want this to be great. You know, like I rarely go into a book thinking like, okay, you better impress me, whatever. And, and so when, when I read something and I, and I feel what that character's feeling when I, when I'm going through emotions, like that's when I get excited as a reader. And so that's what I want to do as an author and, and empathy. I just, I think, I just think it's so important. on so many levels, but especially for kids, just teaching them like there are other kids around you that are going through all sorts of different things and you may not know what they're going for. Lisa, you have that great scene in your book about the kid at Target or is it, it was Target in real life. Was it Target in the book too? Yeah. And, and, and, and that's it. Like it's this bully of a kid and you think like, oh, they're just a jerk. And then it's like, no, like. Like there is a story to why they are the way they are. And that I think is so important. It was so important for me as a reader and as someone who was growing up in the eighties and nineties, I think it's so important for my kids, just teaching them like your experience is very important, but it is not everyone else's experience. And let's, we have to, we have to do all this together. So let's. have empathy for people. Let's try to get in their shoes, in their head. And maybe, you know, there's a little less judgment. Maybe there's a little less criticism if we can get to that point. So, yeah, sorry, that was probably my soapbox. But I think it's so important, like empathy as an author, just helping to guide kids toward other people's experiences.

BETH MCMULLEN

That is very, very well. said. You are welcome to come on the show and get on your soapbox whenever you'd like. This is what the world needs more of. We need more empathy, more willingness to step into people's shoes, more acknowledgement that there are other shoes to step into all of these things. And you are doing a huge service to the young readers out there.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

of these things.

BETH MCMULLEN

are doing a huge service to the young readers out there. So thank you so much for putting aside the time today to come on and talk to us.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

thank you

BETH MCMULLEN

thank you so much for putting aside the time today to come on and talk to us. We are very grateful.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Yeah, thank you for having me. I mean, truly, this is such an honor to be with y 'all. And I told Lisa, like, I mean, if you want me to just show up to every single recording and I'll just sit in the background and just like make jokes like Andy Richter on the Conan O 'Brien show, I am happy to do that anytime.

BETH MCMULLEN

You're hired. Just for like a little behind the scenes when I messaged Adam. He said that exact same thing. And I started in the message and I screenshot it and sent it over to Beth. And she wrote back and she's like, I love him. And I'm like, I know. And so then the other thing, I don't know if I can't remember, like we showed up with the sunglasses. We all had our sunglasses on. And it was one of those things I'm like, I guarantee that Adam is going to show up with sunglasses. So we better have our sunglasses on.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

No, it's my favorite. It did not disappoint you. You understood the assignment.

BETH MCMULLEN

favorite. It did not disappoint you. You understood the assignment. It's my favorite.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

you. You understood the assignment. It's my favorite. Your logo. I mean, what other podcast has the hosts wearing these cool sunglasses, like, in their logo? I just assumed that that's how every podcast is recorded. You just sit at home with your sunglasses.

BETH MCMULLEN

at home with your sunglasses. It would be translated that Lisa and I spend most of our time wandering around in the dark. It was so funny. I like I literally am thinking back to when I was like going back and forth with the illustrator. And I don't know why I said throw some sunglasses on. Oh, I know. Perfect. She had little glasses. And I'm like, OK, we're writers with wrinkles, but now we look like little grannies. I'm like,

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Perfect.

BETH MCMULLEN

can you make them sunglasses? And then she did the sunglasses. I'm like, we look cool. Let's do that. We're recognizing our lack of coolness. We're always like, will this make us cool? I don't know. We'll try it, though. We'll try it.

ADAM ROSENBAUM

Hey, I think it's cool. I love it.

BETH MCMULLEN

I am glad. Everybody, listeners, you heard it here. Adam thinks we're cool. All right. So, listeners, please remember to leave a review and sign up for our newsletter at our website, writerswithwrinkles .net. We really need those reviews. So thank you in advance. And until we see you next time. Happy reading, writing, and listening!