Inside Publishing’s High-Stakes Reality: What Writers Need to Know

In this Ask Beth & Lisa episode, Beth and Lisa discuss one of the most active conversations happening among writers: the growing concern about how the publishing industry treats debut and midlist authors. They share personal experiences, hard-won insights, and reflections from the larger writing community. The result is an honest, validating look at how traditional publishing functions today—and what writers can do to protect themselves.

WHAT WE TALK ABOUT
• When Saying “No” to a Book Deal Is the Right Choice
Lisa shares the full story behind a recent offer, why she passed, and what writers should consider before signing anything.

• Debut Pressure and the “Bad Track” Problem
How unrealistic expectations are shaping careers and why many authors feel set up to fail.

• The Industry-Wide Debate About Publishing’s Risk Model
A deeper look at the ongoing discussion about whether the system prioritizes gambles over careers.

• Orphaned Books, Vanishing Support, and Internal Realities
Beth and Lisa unpack how books lose champions and what that means for authors.

• The Rise of Indie, Hybrid, and Small Press Publishing
Why alternative publishing paths are more viable—and more respected—than ever.

• What Might Fix the System (If Anything)
A candid conversation about realistic change and what authors can control right now.

KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR WRITERS
• Trust your instincts—if a deal feels wrong, walking away is valid and healthy.
• Debut performance follows you, even when the outcome is out of your control.
• Many great writers are shifting into indie and hybrid spaces for more agency.
• A long-term writing career rarely looks linear, and that’s okay.

RESOURCES MENTIONED
• Recent industry essays and think pieces addressing systemic publishing issues
• Ongoing discussions across social media and the writing community
• Indie and hybrid publishing options for midlist authors

CONNECT + BONUS MATERIAL
• Please leave a review—it truly helps!
• Subscribe to the Writers With Wrinkles newsletter: WritersWithWrinkles.net
• Check out new bonus episodes, including first-pages critiques and craft extras.

Transcript

BETH MCMULLEN

Hi, friends. I'm Beth McMullen. And I'm Lisa Schmid. And we're the co -hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is Season 4, Episode 25. Can you believe we're at 25? Holy cow. How'd that happen? Anyway, this is an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. And today, we're talking about a couple of things. We are talking about a very specific experience that Lisa had that she wanted to share. And we're talking about the publishing conversation that's been ongoing about whether publishing has a gambling problem. So today's going to be fun. I'm like so all over this gambling thing. I find it so interesting. But we'll get into that in a minute.

LISA SCHMID

It's been wild. It's just it sparked so many threads and conversations on social media. And just seeing everyone's take on it has been really interesting. I think so, too. I think so, too. Publishers have been remarkably quiet.

BETH MCMULLEN

They're like, oh, we don't want to touch this with a 10 -foot pole. Nobody wants to be confronted with, you know, angry authors storming the castle. You know what I mean? I know. I know. Okay, so I'm giving you the floor.

LISA SCHMID

Oh, you know what? So this is one of those things that it's happened a while ago. And all of a sudden I was like, you know what? I've never really talked about it as a follow up. And I feel like it's a good just like a good learning experience, you know, because I've gone through it, but also anybody else who may go through it. So I think a while back I mentioned that I was given I got a book deal or an offer and I was super excited about it. And it was for I have a captor book series that. I wrote years and years ago, and when I first signed with my agent, that's what she went out with. And during that time, published chapter books were dead. Nothing was happening. And if they were getting picked up, it was published. It was more in -house work and or authors that had already a big following. So there wasn't a lot of room to wiggle my way in. So we just put it on the back burner. And then recently I saw a publisher whose books I love, and I asked my agent, just said, you know, can you just do an exclusive or just a one -off sub to them? And that's when I got the book offer. But the thing is, it came with initially before they made me an offer, they asked me to make some changes to the book. And of course, my first initial reaction was, not happening.

BETH MCMULLEN

They were very specific. Can we say that they were very specific things that they wanted you to change that I felt like you could still maintain almost all of the central integrity of the story you were trying to tell with those changes. So it wasn't like, I don't want people to get the idea that you were like, they wanted you to write like suddenly a science fiction version or something like that. It was like very specific, targeted. changes, right? And they weren't,

LISA SCHMID

weren't, at first I didn't like the changes and I really pushed back. And then the more I looked at the reasoning behind it, it did make the book more marketable. It didn't make the story better. It just made it more marketable. So I did make the changes and they came back with the offer and I immediately said no. And then my agent, of course, being the calm, reassuring person that she is, Explain why you said no. It was a bad offer. So it just it was it was not a good offer. And but Leslie, being the more emotionally stable person, talked to me through it and said, just, you know, hold on, come back with what you would want and be reasonable. But can you know what? What would you want from the offer? And so I was very specific about what my wants were. That's one of the things that I want to just press upon people is if you feel a red flag or if there's something that you really want, ask for it. Don't come back and wilt back and say, oh, I'm so happy to get a publishing deal. Yeah, I'm happy to get a publishing deal, but it's also like entering into a marriage. And if you're already going into it, not feeling super good about it, you're not going to be happy. It's not going to get better. That's really true.

BETH MCMULLEN

That's really true. And don't you think, too, that people get, we see this with agents, too, and this is how authors sometimes end up with agents that have a, you know, are questionable, is because there's this desperate feeling of, well, if I don't toe the line and say yes, yes, yes, then they are going to not want to work with me. But I think you have to think of the cost to yourself. What are you saying yes to? And exactly what you said, like now you're stuck with it. So you do have to like give yourself enough credit to know when something isn't right. Like trust your instincts. They're probably going to be correct.

LISA SCHMID

Yeah. And I think that I don't think my requests were that great, but they were very specific because I knew exactly what I wanted. I knew based on my previous experiences. you know, what could go sideways and what could not go sideways. And so we went back to them with this offer and they waited a few months and then came back and said no. And by that point, I was already not feeling it. I was already like, this is not a space I want to be in. I'm not feeling good about it. So I was grateful that I didn't have to like go back and forth again. So the reason why I share the story is that we're all excited to get that book deal. But being in a bad relationship, it will sour you for long after. And you just don't want to be in that space. And it's okay. I've wanted this book to be out in the world for so long, but I would rather have said no and kept my sanity and my self -respect than go into a book deal I didn't feel good about. And so that's just what I want to say. It's just like, don't feel like you have to take something. And it's we're going out on sub again with it in the new year. And I have high hopes for it. But even if it doesn't sell, I still am glad that I did not go back into that space and say, yeah, I'll take it. Even though I didn't feel good about it, even though I didn't, you know, I wasn't like jumping up and down. I'm just glad I didn't go there. And so I just want I want to give people permission to say, no, it's OK, you know.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah, that's actually amazingly good. You can say no. And there's a lot of reasons to say no. And you don't want to feel used. You don't want to feel like somebody's doing you a favor by agreeing to publish your book. I think authors forget sometimes that there's no publishing without us. Right. You need authors in order to be a publisher. So just try and treat people with a little bit of respect. Right. You treat them with respect. They treat you with respect.

LISA SCHMID

And if it doesn't feel good, just it's OK. Like move on to the next one. It wasn't it wasn't meant to be like, don't don't feel like you have to take it because there was a part of me that was like, oh, my God, this is my last chance with this book. You know, this is my but it's not because so many changes have been made. It's been five years. I've written it. You know, it's a chapter book series. There's a second book like that I've written now. It just. It's a totally different product than it was five years ago. And so I'm glad I'm moving forward with it. I know it was the right decision. And who knows what will happen next year when it goes on set. But if it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. I mean, it's better to just not have that bitter taste in your mouth after you say yes to something that you then regret. Yeah. That's not fun. That's never fun. We've been there. Not that fun. I think this actually leads nicely into our conversation about the publishing industry has a gambling problem because these are about, you know, it's about the approach that publishing takes, how it deals with its authors. And that's exactly what you're talking about in a microcosm. Probably everybody has seen this article. It's by, I don't know how to say her name. Taj Isen. I'm probably saying it wrong, but the last name is Isen, I -S -E -N. And she's suggesting that modern publishing has become like high stakes gambling, rewarding flashy debuts, publishing punishing any... early underperformance and in the process squeezing out midlist, diverse, and non -commercial voices while weakening the literary ecosystem that once allowed writers to grow. And this article came out and then like Lisa mentioned earlier, like a ton of conversation followed. I had never really, but I was always trying to figure out why publishing function the way it does, where they take way more books than readers can consume at a necessary level for them to be successful. Because it's hoping for a hit. It's hoping for Percy Jackson. It's hoping for Gone Girl. It's hoping for, you know, put in your whatever massive bestseller in there. And it's riding on that. So it's throwing all these books at the wall because it has no idea what's going to hit.

LISA SCHMID

Yeah. And we see it happen over and over again. That you feel there's so many authors that feel like they are on the discard pile. That, you know, their book got thrown out there without the care and consideration it deserves. And like you said, you go into a contract with expectations. that contract is going to be met with the same care and concern that you're entering into it as an author. And then when things don't go like you think they should, all of a sudden you're in the thick of it. And there can be the slow realization that, you know what, I'm not the lead title. I'm not going to get, you know, make the list. I'm not going to get this or that. And it's too late.

BETH MCMULLEN

It is too late. Well, and that's... the gist of it right there's another article that just came out on november 11th in it's a lit hub essay and i i'm blanking on the author's name but she's talking about her personal experience of getting a big debut deal and then tanking at launch for reasons beyond her control and then being penalized for quote -unquote bad track and that's the part that i think has kind of raised my hackles in this whole conversation is that, sure, the publisher is gambling on these debuts and they're giving you some money and they're doing all your production work and they're saying they're going to market you. But again, there's too many books for them to pay enough attention to each title that it has a chance of being successful. So automatically, most of these books are going to fail. And by fail, I mean, they're either not going to earn out their advance or they're not going to make a big, splashy, presence in the market that gets them lots of attention and lots of sales. But then when they fail, that becomes the track record for the author. Publisher walks away clean to do it another day. But the author is stuck with this albatross around their neck that you cannot get rid of.

LISA SCHMID

It's tough. It is. It is tough. And you think that you have this whole career ahead of you. And suddenly you don't. My mom was an author. She wrote books, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And during that time, it was like she would stay with one publisher. You know, it was always they built relationships on the premise that if this book, if this first book didn't sell with the next book, we would be building that brand and lifting those sales up because they were creating just a brand for somebody. And they don't do that anymore. It's turn and burn, one off. If you don't, you know, if you don't somehow break out and sell all these books, even though you have nothing to do with sales and marketing, that is not your role. You weren't brought on to be the sales and marketing professional. You were brought on to be the author. And so when they impose this role on you that you don't fulfill. And suddenly you're the one who's paying the price instead of them just, you know, building you up, building a relationship. And so they do this turn and burn business model that just makes zero sense.

BETH MCMULLEN

And it leaves no room for developing a writer. My very first book, which came out in, what, 2011, I think? I might be wrong about that. I think it was 2011. My first book, commercial adult fiction, I'd never published anything before. I was really excited. My conversations with the publishing house were all, you know, this is, we're a family. This is our commitment to you. This is a career, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which of course all turned out to be nonsense. Because they only mean that if you're wildly successful, which I wasn't. And then you're gone. Then they don't even take your calls. You know, I feel like that debut book of mine was cursed from day one because I had three different editors quit in the process before it ever came out. So it was such a little orphan. So then you've got the expectation of wild success, but... The publishing house has undermined you not on purpose. They didn't intend to have the editors quit. But you've been undermined by the process from day one. And there is no way you can fix that. Like you are one tiny person in this massive ecosystem. There's nothing you can do. But the downside is all yours. You own the entire downside.

LISA SCHMID

I'm getting sad just like.

BETH MCMULLEN

No, I think it's like, I think it's a realistic, I think it's a realistic view of publishing. I think, you know, you see, I saw this post the other day, some author, you know, with some rom -com or whatever. So excited. I have six months into publication and blah, blah, blah. And in my back of my mind, I was like, you're so happy and you're going to have your heart broken more likely than not. Oh, my God. You know, I mean, that's true. So you squeeze out. See, like, my feeling is that all these flashy debuts taken up all the real estate. There's no room for your second, third, fourth book. Those never see the light of day. Maybe you have a two book deal up front. Your second book comes out. But if your first book has already crashed, believe me, there will be no attention paid to it. It will die on the vine. That's just reality. So, like, then. You're becoming a better writer. Writing is a craft. It's like making furniture. You get better as you work at it. So where do all the second, third, fourth book authors end up?

BETH MCMULLEN

up? You know, there's this world of amazing stories that we never get to read because they're not flashy debut writers. Do you know what I mean?

LISA SCHMID

Well, it's depressing. And I've talked to so many. writers and in that and have friends of friends or just them specifically that are like I'm out like I can't go through the emotional turmoil and downside of publishing and say I do switch you know from middle grade to adult fiction and I spend two years writing a book and say on the off chance I do sell that And then it doesn't do well. So now I'm tanked in that, you know, in that space. So it's like, what do you do? Do you just keep popping from space to space until there's nothing left?

BETH MCMULLEN

I mean, yes, but the truth is that it's also hard to get out from under baggage that you acquired in another genre. Like it still belongs to you and you can make a compelling case to. for somebody to publish your next book, but you have to work twice as hard to get that attention because now you have the baggage. I think it's just sad that the author is saddled with the downside when they were not given the chance or an opportunity to affect the outcome,

BETH MCMULLEN

chance or an opportunity to affect the outcome, right? You're not in the driver's seat for the marketing, the sales, the PR, any of that stuff, you know. And I think that a lot of publishers now are actually relying on the author to do all of these things that they think will help raise the book above the fray. And it doesn't, it's incredibly hard to be a good marketer.

LISA SCHMID

Oh, and you're putting such, you're placing such a huge amount, you're saddling this author with all this stress that, you know, their job is to sit down and write another book, a better book, you know, the next big thing. But then at the same time, you're feeling all this pressure of like, Am I supposed to get on TikTok? Am I supposed to be shooting daily videos of myself talking about stupid crap so that I seem more entertaining and interesting than I really am? Like what we're so much is put on is like, forget the fact that we have to write a good book, not just a good book, an exceptional book. You know, 1%, we get that drilled into 1 % of 1 % gets published. And it's like, okay, well, how am I supposed to be that 1 % of 1 %? When you want me to do all these other roles and it just feels like, oh, my God, like, what do you want from me? Yeah,

BETH MCMULLEN

I mean, it's a really good it's a really good question. I think what you end up having happen is that there are no career authors anymore, except for, you know, a handful that that can pull it off. Most people are having to write on the side because it can't sustain a living because you can't. You get your one book and you think, OK, this is great, but then there's no room for the second, the third, the fourth, et cetera. So you're you don't have an audience. You can't build an audience. It becomes it. I mean, it's just I think it's I don't know how you fix it. I mean, usually in these podcasts, we're like, OK, this is what you do. But I don't know what I don't I don't know how you solve the gambling problem of publishing.

LISA SCHMID

I don't either. And I wonder sometimes, maybe they're just floating in this cloud so far above us that they have no idea what's going on with all of us down here. I'm sure they do, but it just is, why aren't they taking into consideration any of this? I think one of the most chilling conversations we had on this podcast was with horror episode. Glad you couldn't see like my facial expressions as they were shifting to shock, dismay, horror, and then utter sadness. All at once. Oh, my God. It was. Well, just, you know, I've always had this thought in the back of my brain where it's like. You know, maybe, you know, publishers take into consideration, you know, the fact that they all know they have a lead title and, you know, all the marketing dollars go to one person in that season and da -da -da. And I'm like, maybe they take that into consideration. Like, you watched me, like, work through this. As you nod your head like you are right now, like, oh, you're so cute. You're still working through the truth. And so... I'm always hoping maybe they'll take that into consideration. They know what's going on. They know the deal. And when I asked the editor that very same question, the look on her face was like, are you kidding? She's like, we don't have time for that. How are we supposed to know? She said they don't know. They don't know. She's like, we don't know. And I'm like, well, aren't you like, do you take it in? She's like, no. She's like, we look at the sales track and then we move on. And I just, right then, my world collapsed. Like a paper cup getting smashed on the ground over and over again by a giant elephant. And I'm like, completely flat.

BETH MCMULLEN

Completely flat. Well, I mean, I think that it's like a hard, just a hard reality. But it is a truth. It's not, it's not something we're making up. And I get asked a lot, does my sales record count? Yes, absolutely. And in some cases, it might count more than anything else. It might be the reason that somebody says, I'm going to pass on this. And I don't know how you fix it.

LISA SCHMID

Well, they can just move on to the shiny little penny that, you know, is another fabulous author in that 1 % of 1%. Exactly. Because there's so many good books out there that in that sales track number, it's like, why should we like, why should we deal with this? And when we can have this. Yes.

BETH MCMULLEN

I think the, the maybe a solution. And of course this would never happen, but I feel like they should be publishing less books. Yes. Because what would happen if you could give your full attention to. 10 titles rather than publishing 25 and then just kind of striking your shoulders and see what happens right it's funny because i think publishing's marketing or publishing's business model is insane and then when netflix started doing the same business model where they're like let's just put out a thousand shows and then we'll see which one is good that people watch and that's the one we'll keep making i was like this is so crazy like it's so expensive yeah right to produce all this stuff that most of it's gonna fail i don't understand it at all like if i had a publishing company if i was running a publishing company i would curate a very small list of titles that i love and that would be it but a small list like where i'm paying and nurturing these little babies like they're little babies instead of being like okay little baby i'm gonna

LISA SCHMID

like okay

BETH MCMULLEN

little baby i'm gonna Where are you out on the street? Good luck.

LISA SCHMID

Yeah. It reminds me. I don't know why this story came to my mind as you said this. There was one night. I'm going. I'm sorry. We're taking a little side. It's okay. We are tangenting. Everybody hold on. It's a tangent. Well, there was one time there was a big raccoon kerfuffle in my backyard in the middle of the night. And I'm like, oh, my God, what's going on? What's going on? And my neighbor and I were like communicating back and forth. Like, can you see that? And I like went running to the window and this ginormous raccoon, it was like the size of a bear, came up on the fence and then tumbled into my backyard. And I was like, what's, you know, I ran into the where I could see the pool. And what had happened was there's two giant raccoons and a baby raccoon. And they were. pushing the baby raccoon into the pool, like getting rid of him, like we're done, like taking care of you. And he would try to crawl out and they'd go. And they were like, that is terrible. I was like watching it. And so then they'd crawl. I watched the two parents like crawl up and. go on the fence and disappear into the night. And then they just left it. They left the little baby raccoon in the pool. And I was just like watching it, thinking I got to go out with my, you know, like I'm watching him and he like crawls out, like crawls out of the pool and lays on the poolside. And I'm like, he was half drowned. He was half drowned. Those are the books that don't get cared for.

LISA SCHMID

We are drowning baby raccoons. We are the baby raccoons that they're like, we're done with you. We've done all the work we can.

BETH MCMULLEN

Now go away. Yeah, let you sink or swim on your own, babe. Oh, my God. That is terrible. Those are bad parents. I know.

LISA SCHMID

know. So that's like any time you're feeling really sad and that your book, your next book didn't get picked up. Just go by yourself and stuff, raccoon.

BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah, it's it's you have become a baby raccoon in the pool. I think that's the perfect place to end this discussion about publishing having a gambling problem. I'm going to put there's actually three articles in this set. There's the walrus piece, which is the big, you know, the big one we talked about. The Lit Hub essay that came out in November. And then there's a Guardian article from March of this year that looks at. how too many books are chasing too little attention and that, you know, even really good books just struggle to find readers. And I think if you read all three of those, they give you kind of a good POV on this topic. And I think it's interesting and relevant to almost every working author out there. So this is our public service announcement.

LISA SCHMID

Well, I'm wondering, like, if...

LISA SCHMID

Like when your agent is negotiating the deal, if there's anything proactive they can do, like, you know, what if, you know, in the case of like, if you get if my clients get orphaned, if, you know, this happened, if that happened, like, you know, you always wonder, like, is there anything I can proactively do? And I just you're shaking your head. I am shaking my head because I've had a lot of book contracts and I've asked for multiple different things to try to address the issue of marketing and PR and like getting eyeballs on the book.

BETH MCMULLEN

am shaking my head because I've had a lot of book contracts and I've asked for multiple different things to try to address the issue of marketing and PR and like getting eyeballs on the book.

BETH MCMULLEN

And there's been some very specific conversations that just never got followed through on. And it's hard to, it's hard. You don't want to get in a fight with the publishing house. That doesn't help you. You're just one little beyond, right? But at the same time, I think they do as much as they can within the structure that they've created. I don't think they're vindictive or mean or trying to harm you. I think they just don't have the business structure in place that allows them to support all these books. So they are just trying not to drown like the baby raccoon. They're trying to stay afloat, which means that like... If you have a PR person who's responsible for 40 titles, you're going to get a tiny, tiny little bit of attention for like a hot minute and then they're going to move on, right? Because that's the job that they've been given because that's the way the organization is designed. So I think it's like, I don't think it's a... person problem, a desire problem, any of those things. I think it's the way that the business is structured that doesn't allow people to do their best work for all of these books because they just can't. They can't. It's not set up that way. So like, I think we're not throwing eggs at the publishers. We're just saying that, isn't it time to think about how this is done? Are we doing our best? Are we creating the best books for people to read with this? structure oh and that's that's the whole point is the best books don't often come until the second or third one because you're learning as you go and you're getting better and better and the world is missing out on those beautiful books because they the first ones weren't cared for properly and i have to say like kind of throwing it back to the the start where we were talking about this publisher

LISA SCHMID

and that's that's the whole point is the best books don't often come until the second or third one because you're learning as you go and you're getting better and better and the world is missing out on those beautiful books because they the first ones weren't cared for properly and i have to say like kind of throwing it back to the the start where we were talking about this publisher I and again, I love their books. There's a reason why I went there. But I love the fact that they looked at what I asked for and internalized it and said, we're not willing to give that to you and came back with an honest, you know, rejection. So it just is. I'm glad they did that. I mean, I feel like we had an honest exchange of this is what I want. And they said, you know what? We're not in a position to give that to you. And it's like we parted ways and that's okay. Yeah, no harm, no foul, right? That's the whole point of my telling that story is that they're not a bad publisher. I love their books, but they weren't able to give me what I needed. And that's like, you know, that's for any relationship you're in. Like, this is what I want. If you can't give it to me. I need to try it with somebody else. And I might be single the rest of my life.

BETH MCMULLEN

Well, you raise a good point there, which is something that I wanted to touch on. So because the midlist authors are dropped readily by big publishing hausers, a lot of them end up in the indie. biosphere right in the indie ecosystem with small presses university presses some of these more self -publishing type things hybrids all of these options that now exist that didn't used to exist at this robust level and what's happening at least in my experience is that there are a lot of really good books being published in that space Totally. They're a little bit harder to find, right? Because you have to be, you know, following like Indie Now or whatever to just keep track of what's coming out. But that's where a lot of these mid -list authors who have been, you know, have left the big five publishing universe, this is where they end up. And their books are really good.

LISA SCHMID

Really good. Wow, imagine that. I'm reading a book series right now that's indie published. And you wouldn't know it. Like you wouldn't know by the cover. You wouldn't know it by the book itself. It was only when I started like looking in, because I'm very nosy. I'm like, ooh, who's the publisher? I love this. And I realized that it was self -published. And there are so many books that I have read just that I found wherever on Amazon when I'm looking for something and I'm like, ooh, I like that cover. And then I buy the book. And I find out later on that it's self -published. And it's just, it's a different space than it was 10 years ago. And it doesn't carry the same stigma that it used to. I think self -publishing is a very, it's a very good option. It's an excellent option. And it gives you control. You get to take back the narrative. You get to take control of your book and that the money stays in your pocket. And I think it's a viable option. And I hope that people who are listening to this, who have been in that situation, that their sales tanked and so now they're like a pariah, that they'll consider this option because we want to see your books. I want to read the books that aren't making it to market because of this publishing model. Yeah.

BETH MCMULLEN

Okay. Amen to that, sister. Yep. That's where we're wrapping up today's episode. On that very positive note, we want to read your books. Think about alternative models if you're one of these people who has gotten squeezed out. In a lot of ways, the production values are so high, you can't tell the difference. And, you know, that's like, that's pretty good, especially if they're... There's so many little imprints out there that are under the umbrella of larger publishing houses that you don't even, you know, people are like, oh, it's whatever. And then they assume it's part of a larger ecosystem. So anyway, okay, we'll get off our soapbox now. We are back in two weeks with Mari Kesselring, a publishing manager at Penguin Random House. We're excited to welcome her to the show. And please remember, listeners, to leave a review and sign up for our newsletter at our website, writerswithwrinkles .net. We really need those reviews. So thank you in advance. And a quick note, we are adding bonus material. Our first pages will now be in bonus material. So you will see those episodes popping up randomly here and there. We just had a really good conversation with Adam Rosenbaum. You guys should see that one is already up. So just keep your eye out. We are delivering more bonus stuff with just different things in it that we think you will find useful. So until next time, happy reading, writing, and listening. Bye, Lisa. Bye, Beth. Bye, guys.