Why Indie Authors Are Winning the Business Game (and new First Pages!)

In this episode, hosts Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid talk about a recent publishing controversy sparked on Threads regarding the "legitimacy" of indie authors. They break down the evolving landscape of self-publishing, comparing the financial and creative realities of "indie" versus traditional publishing. Later, they critique the opening pages of a middle-grade mystery titled The Ravenspur Mystery, offering actionable advice on voice, world-building, and establishing character motivation.

Key Discussion Points

The hosts react to a social media thread where an agent reportedly claimed indie writers are not "legit" authors.

• Financial Realities: While the top 10% of traditional authors make significant money, the hosts argue that for most authors, indie publishing offers a better return on value.
• Royalty Gaps: The difference in what an author pockets can be $5 per book.
• The Direct Pipeline: Indie authors have built powerful direct-to-reader relationships through email lists that traditional publishers often struggle to replicate.
• Speed to Market: The traditional pipeline takes about two years, but indie authors are able to release new books every 4 to 6 months to keep their pipeline full.
• Business Savvy: Successful indie authors often earn between $50,000 as a midlist author.

Creative Control & Traditional Pitfalls

• Losing Your Champion: In traditional publishing, an author's original editor may leave, leaving the book in the hands of someone less invested in the project.
• Full Autonomy: Self-publishing allows the author to retain creative control over everything from the editing process to cover design and formatting.
• The "Vanity" Myth: The hosts argue that the old idea of self-publishing as mere "vanity publishing" is dead; it is now a highly viable and sophisticated business route.

First Pages Critique: The Ravenspur Mystery

The hosts review the opening of a middle-grade mystery, praising its "old-school Nancy Drew" feel.

• Strengths: They highlight the strong opening hook that drops readers into the action and a voice that is observational, competent, and slightly wry.
• Critique on Filtering: Beth suggests that descriptive language should be filtered through the protagonist's specific perspective rather than sounding like neutral stage directions.
• Defining the "Want": A key recommendation is to establish the protagonist's internal "want" early on to ensure the reader is fully invested in her journey.

Mentions & Resources

• Books: Going Ghost (Cozy Mystery Series); Behind the Bookcase by Mark Steensland
• Bookstores: Bloodstone Books in Sacramento.
• Upcoming Guest: Award-winning author Amy Trueblood will join the next episode to discuss querying.
• Lisa's New Website!

Transcript

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Beth McMullen: Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen.

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Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmid.

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Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is Season 5, Episode 7. We have a few things on deck today. We have some first pages that we're gonna do, that we're gonna share with you, that are, that we really enjoyed reading, so that should be fun.

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Beth McMullen: But first, we want to talk a little bit about something that we saw on Threads. So I'm going to hand it over to Lisa and her brand new microphone.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh my god, I'm so excited.

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Beth McMullen: I know!

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Lisa Schmid: I just had my IT guy in here, translation, my son, set it all up, and I'm feeling very fancy pants.

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Beth McMullen: It looks… I want to tell you guys, it looks like she's a professional podcaster, and now I feel a lot of pressure to up my…

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Lisa Schmid: Because I, I look like…

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Beth McMullen: I look like that kid in the basement, you know? Like…

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Lisa Schmid: I know. You should have a backward baseball cap on, and you're just like, coming to you live!

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Beth McMullen: Live from the basement!

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Lisa Schmid: Totally. I know, I'm very excited. Well, I've had it for a couple weeks, and I finally have been able to nail him down to… because he's a busy guy, but I will say that he is going… he's graduating and going to be going to college to study audio engineering, so I feel like that's a bonus for me.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, you're like the test case, you know? I am. I am the test case. And right now, you sound pretty good, so I think he's got a really good future in this, and can he come over to my house and fix my stuff so that I sound less like I'm in the basement?

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Lisa Schmid: It's so funny, because I took a picture of him, you know, setting me up, and I sent it to you, I don't know if you saw it yet, and he… I said, Beth's gonna do the same thing, I'm gonna send her all the equipment to order, and he's like, am I gonna have to go out to Davis?

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Beth McMullen: And I'm like, Ollie! Yes! Absolutely! Come on, Ollie!

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Lisa Schmid: Oh, I know.

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Beth McMullen: Carl a favor and make her sound better, you know?

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Beth McMullen: Okay, so, but this is all… it's all because we love our listeners, and we want them.

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Lisa Schmid: I do.

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Beth McMullen: You know, to hear us in our best possible way.

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Lisa Schmid: So, okay, I'm… I'm on threads a lot, and I am always, like, looking at all the different, like, scandals going on, because there's always something in publishing. I mean, we are a hotbed of scandal. Like, there's… you know… Who knew?

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Lisa Schmid: I know! And I'm always like, which one do I choose? Which one do I choose to, like, talk about on our next podcast? But this one really, burned my hide, so I'm like…

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Lisa Schmid: I took a picture of the thread and I sent it to you. Apparently, there was some, like a conference or, a workshop, I don't know, I'm not spec… you know.

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Lisa Schmid: sure on exactly what it was, but there was an agent panel, and apparently an agent said that indie writers were not legit authors. Something to that effect.

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Lisa Schmid: And that just pissed me off so bad, because it just is so elitist, and so small-minded, and so, like, it's like she's so out of touch with publishing, and the fact that self-publishing is, like.

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Lisa Schmid: revolutionizing publishing right now. It's like there… it's a whole new masterpiece of work and evolution and change, and… what other words can I throw out to describe it? Because…

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Lisa Schmid: It just… it pissed me off, and so…

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Beth McMullen: I thought the same thing. I thought, this is an agent who's out of touch with reality. And if it was my agent, first of all, I'd be really embarrassed, because obviously I don't think that way, and I never have, but I would also be really concerned that my agent does not know what's happening in the publishing industry.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. You know, I mean…

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Beth McMullen: Honestly, I did… after I saw that, I, of course, you know, I like to go find data to support my emotional reactions,

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Beth McMullen: And I just did a little bit of poking around to try and find some information on what… now, if you're a… if you're in the top 10% of traditionally published authors, say… I'm just guessing 10%, let's just use that.

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Beth McMullen: you're making boatloads of money. I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the middle, which is, like, most people, right?

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Beth McMullen: It… it's…

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Beth McMullen: apples to oranges, when you look at… and actually, I made the… I really was making the case by the time I was done, I was like.

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Beth McMullen: Why would I ever traditionally publish a book again? Honestly, it's like a… it's a little bit eye-opening, because the… the field has changed.

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Beth McMullen: so much, in terms of, like, what you get back. You know, royalties are the first place to start. A trad author typically sees, like, $1.50, $1.75 per book. If you're an indie author, you can walk away with, like.

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Beth McMullen: $5, $6, you're writing the book, but you're also keeping the lion's share of the value that you created, which is real. I think the biggest thing that

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Beth McMullen: that I've seen as a change is that

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Beth McMullen: These indie authors have this direct-to-reader pipeline that they've created, where they are selling directly to the reader.

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Beth McMullen: And they have these email lists that are incredibly powerful. I mean, publishers wish that they… traditional publishers wish that they could have that relationship with their…

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Beth McMullen: readers. I mean, it is remarkable what these indie authors have built. Yeah, a lot of them are working in genre fiction, and they're able to…

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Beth McMullen: You know, a traditional publishing pipeline is, like, 2 years, it's not exactly nimble, and sometimes that doesn't matter, but…

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Beth McMullen: For these authors, they're able to crank out a book every, you know, 4 months, 6 months, whatever it is, so they keep that pipeline full, and they keep people buying, and then they get them to buy, like, special editions, and they get them to buy swag, and it's like a whole… they create a universe, and they own all of it.

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Beth McMullen: It's brilliant!

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Lisa Schmid: It is, and there's a couple things I'll add to that. So, I had in… on another separate

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Lisa Schmid: thread, somebody was talking about, like, the New York Times bestseller list, and how random it is that somebody lands on there. Like, somebody could sell 5,000 books in one week and land on the New York Times bestseller list, but then, you know, two weeks later, somebody could sell 35,000 and not land on the list. And there was one self-published author that chimed in and said, I sold

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Lisa Schmid: 25,000.

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Lisa Schmid: You know, in my first week, and…

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Lisa Schmid: Of whichever book it was, and I didn't make any lists, because I can't make a list, because I'm… I'm self-published. And I'm just like, 25,000? In my dreams, right? Like, I'm like, that's amazing! Like, these people are doing incredible things.

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Lisa Schmid: And they're doing that as doctors, and they're smart.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, and they're… they're business savvy. I think that's what you would… you would… that's the word that I think about when I see what they're doing. They have all of this maneuverability, they're able to pivot. I read something that a traditional, like, mid-list author, you know, like, what I call the B-list, people who aren't bestsellers, they…

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Beth McMullen: They might earn out in advance, they might not, they're kind of mid-list, and they're basically disappearing from the bookshelves, because publishers…

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Beth McMullen: don't want that. They want, you know, something that is, you know, they want more, not guaranteed, but they want whatever did well before, they just want more of that, so you get a lot of space now left in the middle. But an indie…

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Beth McMullen: An indie author can easily make, comfortably with, you know, they're not a huge name, they're not a household name, they're not making millions, but they can make $50,000, $100,000 a year on this writing side gig.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's amazing. So, I've brought up this series before. I'm reading this series,

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Lisa Schmid: their cozy mystery is called Going Ghost, and she did something that I thought was so brilliant. She has, like, the cover is, the exact same for every book, with tiny minor tweaks. But in the O part of Ghost is where she puts Book 1, Book 2, Book 3, so she doesn't have to spend the money each time

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Lisa Schmid: creating a new cover for it, and there's brand recognition with it, and she's got all the trim size right, and I've read… I'm on my third book of hers, and I have not yet caught one typo.

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Lisa Schmid: Not one.

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Beth McMullen: And, you know, as writers, and we're always looking… you know, you're not looking, but you're, like… You notice.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, you notice, and I have not caught one mistake in her books, and I'm just thinking, this girl's got it going on. Like, you know, she's got this great series, it's just having that… I don't know how she… if she came up with that idea, or whatever, it's so brilliant, because you do get just that brand recognition. It's like, oh, you know, it's my new Growing Ghost book.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah. And then I've got 1, 2, 3. You could just stack them up on the shelf, and they.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah!

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Beth McMullen: pretty, and you pay for them, you buy them. She pockets almost all that many.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: I, you know, it's just, it's crazy to me, there's this idea in publishing, and this has been around forever, that there's prestige that comes along with traditional publishing, and

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Beth McMullen: To an extent, like, that used to be true when self-publishing was mostly vanity publishing, but it is not even, you know, that's a version of it that has long since died.

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Beth McMullen: it seems crazy to me that you would think that… well, I think you really have to weigh your options, right? Like, okay, maybe you can get a traditional publishing contract for a book.

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Beth McMullen: Maybe you get a small advance, maybe the book doesn't get the support it needs, it never earns out, so you have some prestige, but now you also have failure.

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Beth McMullen: Should you have gone the self-publishing route, if you're good at that stuff. Some people are really lousy at the marketing and the promotion and whatnot. You do need to be business savvy to do that, but I think a lot of people really are.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's, I always… I posted something a couple weeks ago that said, you know, traditional publishing, indie publishing.

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Lisa Schmid: you know, it's all good, choose your own adventure. Like, seriously, choose your own adventure, do what you want to do, it's just… it's not the same as it used to be, and I get that there is, like, something very cool.

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Lisa Schmid: I know when I got my first book contract, I was giddy. There… it is very cool, but now I just am like, I just want to get stories out, you know? And I think…

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Beth McMullen: We'll get in the way.

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Lisa Schmid: the world has evolved around publishing, because publishing is a hot mess. I mean, let's just say it out loud.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, it is, and I think it's just, there's so much change, it's impossible for…

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Lisa Schmid: Anyone to keep up.

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Lisa Schmid: You lose control, and you have no… when you're with a, you know, say you land with a traditional publisher, an editor acquires your book, that editor leaves, then you're put onto somebody else's desk, and now you've lost your champion, and you've lost creative control. And now you're relying on somebody who has reluctantly picked it up, and is carrying the ball to the finish line, but stumbling the whole way, you know?

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, and I, you know, you don't blame them, right?

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Lisa Schmid: Not for a while.

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Beth McMullen: book had three different editors before it hit the shelves. By the time we hit the third, the person could not have cared less about that book, and I get it, like, they were not involved in the process. Somebody just dumped it on them, and they have their own list that they're really excited about. Now they're stuck with this other stupid book that they're like, man, I don't even like this one.

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Beth McMullen: Right. So I get it, but it stinks to be on the receiving end of that.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, but my… I think my endpoint was gonna be that, like, with self-publishing, you re… you retain creative control. Like, you have got creative control of your book from start to finish, of the editing, the copy editing, the proofreading, the cover design, the trim size, the formatting, you know, everything. Like, it is fully in your control. It is fully your baby, and so when it goes out into the world, you know how it's gonna

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Lisa Schmid: look. You're not gonna… it's not just gonna show up on your doorstep when you open your box and go, yeah, that's not how I thought.

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Beth McMullen: Wait a minute, is this what I signed up for?

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Lisa Schmid: So, I mean.

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Beth McMullen: I have been misled.

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Lisa Schmid: I think there's some really wonderful things about being self-published, and it's becoming more and more apparent.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, and I was… when I was doing my poking around, I found this, article where somebody was writing about how a lot of the massively successful indie authors…

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Beth McMullen: tried traditional publishing. You know, they put out a few books, they didn't get any traction, it didn't work for them, the publishing house didn't do the kind of marketing and sales that they needed, and then when they pivoted to just being their own shop, they really took off, and it's like.

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Beth McMullen: it's like they intuitively knew what their reader wanted and needed, and that's what they delivered. It's pretty amazing, and I think nowadays, with all of the tools that we have at our disposal.

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Beth McMullen: you can really replicate the process of a traditional publishing house in some ways yourself, and if you're willing to take on that challenge.

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Beth McMullen: and you think you're gonna be good at it, then, you know, I totally understand why people go in that direction.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, the other thing I was reading is that

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Lisa Schmid: with book sales, I think it's, like, 60% of book sales are done on Amazon, and.

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Beth McMullen: It's more than that, it's 70.

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Lisa Schmid: 70? Is it 70? Yeah, it's a really high number, so if you're on Amazon, and I know we all, everyone, like, we support our independent bookstores and our brick and mortars, but I mean, that's just being, you know, a business person is looking at that and going, okay, well, this is where… this is my marketplace.

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Lisa Schmid: And this is, if I can tap into that.

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Lisa Schmid: and make a living, you know, people… that's just smart business. That's just being…

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Lisa Schmid: wise. Yeah. And so… and I'm seeing more and more independent bookstores picking up

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Lisa Schmid: indie published books. Like, somebody… there was a bookstore that posted… I'm on threads way too much, I'm just gonna say this right now.

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Lisa Schmid: I was, like, reading you my responses the other day. There is…

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Lisa Schmid: Anyway, there was a bookstore that was saying, you know, what makes you stay in a bookstore? Like, when you walk in, and what makes you come in and stay? Like, what are you looking for? And I'm looking for, like, a local author, you know, section. I'm, you know, bonus if it has, indie published authors in there.

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Lisa Schmid: And I don't want to see mass market. I don't want to see, like, everything I can buy at Barnes & Noble.

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Lisa Schmid: I can buy at Barnes & Noble. I want to see books that I'm not going to find at Barnes & Noble, at an independent bookstore. I mean.

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Lisa Schmid: That's what makes it so interesting, and I understand they have to do some of the mass market books and the, you know, the popular New York Times seller, books, but I think it's more interesting when I walk into a bookstore and discover something. I'm… because that's how it used to be, like, I… orders books years ago.

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Lisa Schmid: It was very, like, I could walk in there and find new authors, and that's what.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: do when I walk into a bookstore is find new authors.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, I agree, I agree. And if it just looks like a mini version of, like, Amazon…

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Lisa Schmid: Right!

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Beth McMullen: You know, the best sellers on Amazon, you're sort of like, I don't, you know, I want a little bit of flavor.

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Lisa Schmid: to it.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: it up.

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Beth McMullen: I agree, I agree. It's definitely, an opportunity for those local bookstores to reflect something a little bit less mass market, less, you know, cookie cutter.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, it's… I mean, it's really interesting, and I think we talked about this maybe in one of the other shows, where, you do see these wildly successful indie authors now going to the… the publishers, coming to them, and saying, hey, let's partner.

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Beth McMullen: And then the publisher will take on something like, you know, a special edition with sprayed edges, because it's easier for a publisher to do that. They have the pipeline for that, or they might do something, you know, something else like that, and they're, of course.

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Beth McMullen: Like you're just saying, their marketing… their sales outreach is definitely going to be broader than somebody who's just a one-person shop on their own, but…

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Beth McMullen: It's amazing to me, because the indie authors are the ones in the driver's seat of those contracts. They're saying, okay, you're allowed to do a special edition.

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Beth McMullen: And you're allowed to do a hardcover version that you're gonna sell in stores, but that's it! Yeah. Like, you can't have the electronic rights, you can't have, you know, all these things that they keep for themselves. It's… I think it's fascinating.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, things are changing.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, and back to the… back to the threads comment about the agent, like, she's out of touch with reality, and like, if you're looking for an agent, they better be fully plugged into what's going on in the publishing universe, otherwise they're not going to serve you effectively. So just, you know, a little FYI on that account.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, I think she shot herself in the foot, because it was… there was so much blowback on there, and yeah, it's just… it's not good. Not good. Silly girl. Silly girl. Silly little rabbit.

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Beth McMullen: Some things you can say in your head, but not out loud, right? Yeah. Like, keep that in your head, don't say it out loud, because nobody wants to hear it. Nobody wants to hear it. And it's also, like, it's not true.

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Lisa Schmid: It's not true, and publishing is small, and we all talk.

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Beth McMullen: It's so small.

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Lisa Schmid: You know, the thing is, it's like, you know, it's like, do you want to be DM'd? Do you want the information? And of course everyone does, because they want to know who to avoid, like the plague.

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Beth McMullen: Killing.

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Lisa Schmid: Those are those things, it's like, if you say something like that, be prepared. Like, half the time, you know, I say things, and I'm like, should I have said that that many times?

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, but you're… you're…

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Beth McMullen: coming from a position of, like, observing, do you know what I mean? Like, we're not in a position where we are making decisions for clients, do you know what I mean? Like, we don't have a staple of clients who are then going to be living in our world that is, you know…

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Lisa Schmid: Ian on it.

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Beth McMullen: Uninformed. So, it's different.

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Lisa Schmid: Crazy.

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Beth McMullen: Okay, let's go do pages. Yeah?

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Lisa Schmid: Yes. Alright, this is…

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Beth McMullen: This is a fun one. I actually like this one, yeah. I like them all. I like them all. Sometimes it's, like, sometimes you have something and you're like, huh, she doesn't really need any help. And then some people, you're like, I like this, but you can make it better. Do you know what I mean?

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Lisa Schmid: I love… this one felt very old-school Nancy Drew to me, and I… I think… and it's… it's a middle grade, and you can go into that in a second, but it just felt very… like, the writing's good, but it just… the setup was so good, and I just… I felt like, Nancy Drew, I feel this, like…

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Beth McMullen: Well, it brought to mind what we talked to Fleur about, about whether or not you can have a murder in middle grade, so I'm gonna read it now.

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Lisa Schmid: Okay.

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Beth McMullen: Okay.

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Beth McMullen: It's called The Ravenspur Mystery. It is middle grade mystery.

(pages content read here)

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Lisa Schmid: Dun dun dun dun!

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Beth McMullen: I know, you can almost hear the, like… It was so good. One of the things, okay, there's so much I loved about this.

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Lisa Schmid: I loved that… this is one thing Fleur talked about in the podcast in our interview with her, is having the crime take place off-scene, which she's done. And she set it up like she dropped us right into the middle of the murder mystery, which I love.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, I think that,

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Beth McMullen: from the first line, the skulked at the foot of the staircase gives us, like, action and character attitude all at once, and I love that we're dropped into an eavesdropping situation at the murder location. It's a great, like.

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Beth McMullen: genre-appropriate entry point, I think, for this sort of thing, and you're immediately oriented to where you are and intrigued, which I think is…

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Beth McMullen: A pretty big lift for, a beginning.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. I mean, didn't it feel like Nancy Drew, like, oh, she's listening in, like, she's the little.

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Beth McMullen: I don't remember any Nancy Drew. I know. I lived on Nancy Drew. I definitely had some, but I don't remember any of it.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh, okay.

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Beth McMullen: I am a bad person for the Nancy Jones.

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Lisa Schmid: No, you're not! I… I am like… I was a Nancy Drew gal, so this felt very… it feels very old-fashioned, like, it's.

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Beth McMullen: Well, yeah.

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Beth McMullen: It does a great job delivering the setting, too. Like, you've got the carved ravens, the ancient timbers, you know, you're grounding this story without doing an info dump, which is so important, especially for middle grade, where the kid is gonna give you, like, maybe 3 minutes before they spin off to their phone.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: One thing I would clarify early…

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Beth McMullen: and I'm not sure we get it even in the full thing, is what… what Ravenspur is. Are they in a house, a private library, an institution? Like, there's the armchair she mentions. I… I get the… I get the idea that it's an estate, somehow, that belongs to the victim, but…

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Beth McMullen: I think you could sharpen that with one tiny detail.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, I… well, I… I thought in that first paragraph, I thought she could cut some of the details.

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Beth McMullen: Well, yeah, I had… I had a…

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Beth McMullen: a note on that, too, but I was thinking about it in terms of voice. I feel like this voice is very suitable to middle grade. It's, you know, observational, slightly wry, competent without being precocious, which I think is totally critical for this

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Beth McMullen: group. The how long can it take to discuss a murder is a great line. It's, like, funny and character revealing.

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Lisa Schmid: That was not.

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Beth McMullen: But…

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Lisa Schmid: Alright.

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Beth McMullen: The voice is strongest?

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Beth McMullen: When Ella is active and filtering the world through her perspective, it becomes more neutral and less strong in that descriptive language part, like the boarded door, the police tape.

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Beth McMullen: it reads more like stage direction than Ella's experience of the scene, so it's sort of the same thing that you're saying. Like, I would want to know what does she make of the smashed glass and the removed camera. Like, we know that they're there, but if you filter that through her.

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Beth McMullen: then you're gonna keep that super intriguing voice, which is, I think, the strong part about this. Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, I think… I think, like, we've talked about this before, just sometimes, like, less details at the beginning,

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Lisa Schmid: I actually… it's funny, I actually like the crime scene, description.

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Beth McMullen: I think you can keep the details, but I think you kind of have to look at them as if she's… instead of pulling back and being more neutral, you're seeing, like, what is she seeing? Like, she's gonna digest this.

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Beth McMullen: in a different way than if I'm looking at it, or an omniscient narrator is just telling you what's there. Right, right, right. And that lets you keep her… that lets you keep her voice intact throughout.

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Beth McMullen: And her voice is excellent, and should be there every single moment, because it's almost like a pacing thing, right? You've got, like, you're in her voice, and then it lags, and you lose it a little bit, and then you come back to it.

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Beth McMullen: And it's that lag that people start to, like, you know, they don't… they're spinning away from it, and you don't want to give them any chance to let go. Like, you want to grab them and hold them, and I think her voice that she's creating with Ella is…

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Beth McMullen: Really strong, and, and… Is kind of the thing that you want to see drive through the whole opening.

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Lisa Schmid: I agree. The how long can it take to discuss a murder? It's so snarky.

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Beth McMullen: Right, and you can see her just, like, rolling her eyes, like.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: birth?

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, I mean, it's just right in that first… in that… that first line of thought coming from her specifically, it's… it shows me exactly who her personality is, and it's somebody that I want to go on a ride with. Like, this is going to be a fun.

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Beth McMullen: Yes, and I think you get… I think…

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Beth McMullen: The one other thing that I would point out, and I honestly think those are the only couple of things that I have.

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Beth McMullen: as comments is, like, you get the sense that Ella's very curious, she's, like, a little sneaky, because she's hanging out there listening. I like the tinkling fingers, I'm assuming that's going to be a recurring signal of something, hinting at, like.

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Beth McMullen: Maybe in her life beyond this scene,

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Beth McMullen: you know, she checks the carpet for her godfather's bread, which the stakes are personal, right? It's not just puzzle solving. Like, there's a personal stake in this, which I think is, is crucial. The other part of that stake is a clear sense of what Ella wants.

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Beth McMullen: In, like, a story sense. You get her father's promise, I will find out what really happened.

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Beth McMullen: And that seems like a natural moment for some internal reaction, like, she wants to be the one who solves it, does she doubt him because he's an idiot, or he's never done… you know, he's gone back on promises before? Like, one beat of a response?

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Beth McMullen: Would give us some of her motivation and kind of, like, bring us totally onto her side.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. Well, I feel like my sense of this is that her and her father kind of have, like, a…

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Lisa Schmid: a Nancy Drew relationship. Going back to Nancy Drew, where her dad.

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Beth McMullen: Nancy, Nancy!

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Lisa Schmid: I can't… oh my god, I can't remember. I think he was an attorney. And so, God, it's been a while since I've read Nancy Drew. But there was, like, that kind of, like, we're equals but not equals kind of relationship.

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Beth McMullen: Where he doesn't treat him.

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Lisa Schmid: Or, like, a child.

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Beth McMullen: And it's entirely possible that in the next line she does all of these things, we really only have left.

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Lisa Schmid: Right.

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Beth McMullen: 300 words, so it's… but I think it is something important to address somewhere in those first few pages, like, a clear sense of what she wants, what her want is. And, yeah, I mean, this was really fun.

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Beth McMullen: to read. Yeah, I have a list of things. My list of things was, give Ella a clear internal want.

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Lisa Schmid: Push the voice through the descriptive passages and name the place. That's it. Yeah. It's good.

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Lisa Schmid: I… the way I picked the, I always pick the first pages. I just kind of, like, go through our list, and I don't read them at all. I just, like, pick somebody's name. It's like drawing a name out of a hat, and so this is when I saw this. It's always fun to see what I'm gonna get. I'm always like, what are we gonna be reading today?

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Beth McMullen: Well, it's totally fun, it's totally fun, because it's just… it's like a… it's like a grab bag, right?

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it's a fun grab bag, and I can't… I'm so… that people trust us with their work is so cool that we… we get to read this.

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Beth McMullen: And I have started, in my own reading, I've gotten really critical of first pages.

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Beth McMullen: So if I read a book, I'm like, they're not doing the right thing, like, they need to do this, this, and this. And then I'm like, okay, I'm trying to just be a reader. I'm just… I'm not trying to analyze, I'm just trying to read this book, but I get hung up in the first pages if they don't kind of deliver me what I think they should be delivering me.

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Lisa Schmid: I am… oh my god, what's the name of the book? So, I just picked up this book at my brewery the other day, at the brewery, my family, owns, that we own.

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Lisa Schmid: we had a, okay, you know about the book swap that I had a while ago. Well, then I did a pop-up bookstore with, like, a little indie bookshop, and they came, and they were, like, all horror and, science fiction books. It was really cool. Anthony and Gabe Bloodstone Books, hey!

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Lisa Schmid: Shout out.

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Lisa Schmid: Shout out! So nice. Like, if you're in the Sacramento area, please go in and see them, they're absolutely wonderful. Anyway, there was an… they brought an author to do a signing, which was so cool, they didn't even tell me. And he wrote… he had all these different books. He was also traditionally published and indie published.

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Lisa Schmid: He was mixing it up, and he was a college professor, where my son's gonna be going to school next year, also very cool, but he, had a middle grade book called Behind the Bookcase, and it's like a spooky middle grade. And I was in it, like, with the first chapter, I was reading it, and I'm like, oh my god, this… it just felt like very old-school writing.

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Lisa Schmid: And so I left the brewery and came home to grab some lunch or something, read the first chapter, went back, and I'm like, oh my god, I love your book, you know, blah blah blah blah, and I'm loving it. And so it's called Behind the Bookcase, and it was published probably, like, 10 years ago.

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Beth McMullen: Okay.

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Lisa Schmid: So, that was super fun, but his, like, opening, you know, his opening chapter grabbed me, and I just, like…

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, that's good. I mean, it's so critical, and I think it's, like, that thing that you really should spend a little extra effort getting right, because our attention spans are so pathetic these days, mine included.

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Beth McMullen: So, anyway. Alright, so thank you so much, author, for sharing that with us. We will be emailing you the few little comments that we had, if you'd like to use them in revisions, and

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Beth McMullen: all of you out there who want to share your first pages with us, there is instructions in, the… will be in the podcast notes, and it tells you how to go about doing that. And we do these

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Beth McMullen: You know, we do these whenever we can, so, we try to do them a few times a month.

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Lisa Schmid: It's very random.

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Beth McMullen: It is random, but, like, randomness is sort of our thing.

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Lisa Schmid: You know what? This is how it works, my friends. I'll be sitting there, and all of a sudden, a text will come in, and Beth will say, it's time to do some first pages.

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Beth McMullen: I really like doing them, like, it… I enjoy the, like…

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Lisa Schmid: I enjoyed it.

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Beth McMullen: the mechanics of, like, you know, looking at the things and being like, yup, this is really great, this could be stronger, because I want everybody to succeed, so I want them all to, like, get their… put their best foot forward, you know what I mean?

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Lisa Schmid: I know, but it's like, I think my point is, is we're not as structured as one might think.

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Beth McMullen: Well, we're a little bit loosey-goosey in our podcasting universe. And actually, people are like, what are you talking about? We know what a hot mess you are.

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Beth McMullen: You are actually… I have a… I have a secret to share with everybody. Lisa is not actually a hot mess. She says that, but she's, like, remarkably on top of things. In fact, I think if you had to look at both of us, I'm probably more of a hot mess.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm a little.

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Beth McMullen: You guys get things done, and then you're just like, here's the list, and I've checked off these five things, now you go and do these other things, and then the list is done, and I'm like, okay!

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Lisa Schmid: Oh my god, so can I talk about one more thing really quick? Yeah. So, I had my website redone, please go check it out, because…

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Beth McMullen: It's really cute. I really love it.

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Lisa Schmid: I really like it. It's so cute. I'm just loving it. I had a really… speaking of hot mess, it was Beth May.

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Beth McMullen: Okay, the website was a hot mess, I will give you that.

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Lisa Schmid: No, thank you.

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Beth McMullen: too bad.

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Lisa Schmid: I know, when I was talking to the designer, I'm like, I know you're dazzled by my creative masterpiece, and he's just looking at it like, oh my god.

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Beth McMullen: But it's just…

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Lisa Schmid: I kept thinking that, you know, it would be so expensive, but it really wasn't. It was quite affordable, you know, it was affordable.

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Lisa Schmid: And so I created this new website… 

Beth McMullen: Okay, so that is it for today's episode. We are back in two weeks with award-winning author Amy Trueblood talking about querying, which we know is every other's favorite subject.

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Beth McMullen: But we promise to make it palatable for you. In the meantime, please remember to leave us a review and sign up for our newsletter at our website, writerswithrinkles.net. We really need those reviews, so thank you in advance, and until the next time we are together, happy reading, writing, and listening. Bye, Lisa!

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Lisa Schmid: Bye, Beth. Bye, guys.